1/2 NL: Badbeat or bad play?

UnoMas777UnoMas777 Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
edited August 15 in Live Poker Hands
It's wednesday night, past midnight. I've been playing at this table for about an hour. It's 6-handed.

Hero (UTG+2) is young, asian guy who wears glasses and looks like a thinking player.

Villain (SB) is young white guy who's wearing a nice polo shirt and khaki pants. Looks like a college graduate type that just wore his clothes from his professional job and never took them off when he just arrived to the poker room a little after an hour ago. He was very talkative with the dealer as if he knew him, but i don't think he did. He was there to have fun. He open raised to 3.5 bbs ($7) most of his hands, and raised to ten a couple times with limpers in front of him. The action was going fast at one point, and he said it felt like rush poker, which indicated to me that he played some online poker and probably new more than the average middle aged poker player. He had played pretty straightfoward, looking disinterested with the hands that he whiffed the flop with. And i was able to stab at a couple multi way pots with nothing when i saw clear disinterest. He also released his hands pretty fast when he wasn't going to continue.

Effective $320. Hero is covered by villain.

Hero(UTG +2) has :Js:8s

UTG limps, Hero (UTG+2) limps, hijack folds, btn folds, Villain (SB) raises to 12, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero(UTG+2) calls.

FLOP (4-handed $48): :9d:Tc:3h

Villain (SB) checks, BB checks, UTG bets $15, Hero (UTG +2) calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn (4-handed $108): :Qs

Villain (SB) checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero (UTG +2) bets $50.

Villain(SB) checkraises $150, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero has a straight but is it good ???

I actually ended up pushing all- in for around $240 more because i thought it was going to go all-in anyway on the river i call there. In retrospect, i should've realized that his peeling range does include the nuts and shouldn't have been so quick to do that. Could've I really gotten away from this hand or is this just one of those things where you say good hand and move on? I feel really bad after this bc i don't know if this is a standard fold. I mean he did play straightforwardly before and his experience online shoudl tell me he's not doing this with air. There's a very small percentage of the time that he's doing this as a ballsy checkraise bluff. Can i realistically fold this?

edit: I knew i should've folded pre or raised. Probably most likely folded though.

Comments

  • DoubleBarrelDoubleBarrel Hudson Valley, NYRed Chipper Posts: 870 ✭✭✭
    What I have realized by playing and studying over the last handful of months is that there are no such things as bad beats. Everything is rooted in math, it all makes sense, it all works out. As someone on 2p2 just told me - sometimes it's your turn to pay the fish tax at the table. That's all a "bad beat" really is.
  • UnoMas777UnoMas777 Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    JPF wrote: »
    What I have realized by playing and studying over the last handful of months is that there are no such things as bad beats. Everything is rooted in math, it all makes sense, it all works out. As someone on 2p2 just told me - sometimes it's your turn to pay the fish tax at the table. That's all a "bad beat" really is.

    Thanks for your reply, but is this a standard fold in this scenario?
  • wescrowescro Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Given the nature of your post and the question it posed, I'm assuming that V snap called your all-in and had KJ for the nut straight, correct? Either way, I think it's an okay line to take... with the caveat, as you stated, that limping pre was a mistake from early position. But I don't have any issues with your post-flop play. I don't think this is a fold unless you have a read that V has absolutely no lines here that don't include the stone-cold nuts.

    You continue with an open-ender on a dry flop against the C-bet. And then you turn your straight and play it as aggressively as you can. It's the second nuts at that point, you block the nuts, and I think you could've even further discounted KJ (at least if you assume V is a solid, thinking player), because his flop C-bet into 3 other players (with a only gut-shot and marginal overs) is not a smart play. Given V's line, I think it was more likely that he might have held an overpair, or a set of queens, particularly since his check/raise makes more sense as an attempt to protect his hand from being outdrawn. If he turns over KJ there, you just chalk it up to bad-timing and make a note that he'll C-bet too wide into MW pots going forward. (oh, and stop limping suited 3-gappers from early/mid positions, to beat a dead horse)
  • UnoMas777UnoMas777 Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    wescro wrote: »
    Given the nature of your post and the question it posed, I'm assuming that V snap called your all-in and had KJ for the nut straight, correct? Either way, I think it's an okay line to take... with the caveat, as you stated, that limping pre was a mistake from early position. But I don't have any issues with your post-flop play. I don't think this is a fold unless you have a read that V has absolutely no lines here that don't include the stone-cold nuts.

    You continue with an open-ender on a dry flop against the C-bet. And then you turn your straight and play it as aggressively as you can. It's the second nuts at that point, you block the nuts, and I think you could've even further discounted KJ (at least if you assume V is a solid, thinking player), because his flop C-bet into 3 other players (with a only gut-shot and marginal overs) is not a smart play. Given V's line, I think it was more likely that he might have held an overpair, or a set of queens, particularly since his check/raise makes more sense as an attempt to protect his hand from being outdrawn. If he turns over KJ there, you just chalk it up to bad-timing and make a note that he'll C-bet too wide into MW pots going forward. (oh, and stop limping suited 3-gappers from early/mid positions, to beat a dead horse)

    yeah, i think i needed to fold pre. The biggest adjustment i have to live poker is that i get really impatient and think bc i know how to better postflop i can play more marginal hands EP. But that's not the case here.

    He actually check/called the flop, no c-bet, btw. Which all the clues tell me that KJ is definitely a good candidate.

    Thanks for taking time to respond!
  • wescrowescro Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Ahh, thank you for the correction. I misread the post. Yeah, I don't think continuing with KJ there is a good play, but you're right that it keeps that hand more in range than if he C-bet.

    Either way, I still think it's not a fold, as you'll go broke very quickly folding the second nuts too often.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,716 -
    UnoMas777 wrote: »
    wescro wrote: »
    Given the nature of your post and the question it posed, I'm assuming that V snap called your all-in and had KJ for the nut straight, correct? Either way, I think it's an okay line to take... with the caveat, as you stated, that limping pre was a mistake from early position. But I don't have any issues with your post-flop play. I don't think this is a fold unless you have a read that V has absolutely no lines here that don't include the stone-cold nuts.

    You continue with an open-ender on a dry flop against the C-bet. And then you turn your straight and play it as aggressively as you can. It's the second nuts at that point, you block the nuts, and I think you could've even further discounted KJ (at least if you assume V is a solid, thinking player), because his flop C-bet into 3 other players (with a only gut-shot and marginal overs) is not a smart play. Given V's line, I think it was more likely that he might have held an overpair, or a set of queens, particularly since his check/raise makes more sense as an attempt to protect his hand from being outdrawn. If he turns over KJ there, you just chalk it up to bad-timing and make a note that he'll C-bet too wide into MW pots going forward. (oh, and stop limping suited 3-gappers from early/mid positions, to beat a dead horse)

    yeah, i think i needed to fold pre. The biggest adjustment i have to live poker is that i get really impatient and think bc i know how to better postflop i can play more marginal hands EP. But that's not the case here.

    He actually check/called the flop, no c-bet, btw. Which all the clues tell me that KJ is definitely a good candidate.

    Thanks for taking time to respond!

    ding ding ding
    Moderation In Moderation
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Everything in this hand is basically regrettable. Forget all this thinking player self leveling and khaki pants reasoning, if only to zero in on fundamental strategy.

    The limp puts in passive dead money - it's a loser overall; worse, the limp is not strategic, as it's a RIO candidate. On the othwr side the sb's slightly poor raise sizing rewards the limp, and combo choice from sb is certainly bad. So this is just another clusterfuck 1/2 hand, in other words.

    On the flop, there is an incentive to polarize vs field, especially vs sizing. Instead we turn jack high into j10, rather than 33 which does have some limping. Of course we don't want to neccesarily r/f the draw but since we shouldn't have it your choice suffers. Naturally, somebody gets screwed in this hand that never needed to happen: next time make sure it is the enemy by setting up the hand better as a loose iso or a positional fold. GL.
  • BigDaddyBigDaddy Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
    Hero (UTG+2) is young, asian guy who wears glasses and looks like a thinking player.

    Villain (SB) is young white guy who's wearing a nice polo shirt and khaki pants. Looks like a college graduate type that just wore his clothes from his professional job and never took them off when he just arrived to the poker room a little after an hour ago.

    Is this a joke, or a real post?
  • TheGrindersCookbookTheGrindersCookbook Merrimack, NHRed Chipper Posts: 81 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Everything in this hand is basically regrettable. Forget all this thinking player self leveling and khaki pants reasoning, if only to zero in on fundamental strategy.

    The limp puts in passive dead money - it's a loser overall; worse, the limp is not strategic, as it's a RIO candidate. On the othwr side the sb's slightly poor raise sizing rewards the limp, and combo choice from sb is certainly bad. So this is just another clusterfuck 1/2 hand, in other words.

    On the flop, there is an incentive to polarize vs field, especially vs sizing. Instead we turn jack high into j10, rather than 33 which does have some limping. Of course we don't want to neccesarily r/f the draw but since we shouldn't have it your choice suffers. Naturally, somebody gets screwed in this hand that never needed to happen: next time make sure it is the enemy by setting up the hand better as a loose iso or a positional fold. GL.

    My only question in this post is - why are you saying that $12 raise is a poor raise? If I read it correctly, we have 2 limpers and the blinds. He goes 4x + 1 BB per limper. Are you saying he should size bigger here? And why?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 21
    Maybe I thought it was 1/3 - looks like a mistake? I mean it could be larger, especially OOP.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 556 ✭✭✭
    Against two limpers (who have position on you) 6x won't generate any folds is my guess
  • Ben GunnBen Gunn Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    I agree with above posters that this hand could have been played better so as not to be in this position, but now that we're here, I'm curious if there is a fold to be found.

    Value: I am assuming that villain would cbet any set, T9, QQ on the flop. With 3 opponents V would feel pretty good about getting value in flow against single pairs and draws. I almost think V would cbet QT for the same reason, but I'm not sure.

    On the turn then, what does that leave for value for the x/r? Maybe QT? Surely not AQ. Q3? I don't buy it. KJ or J8 for the chop are kind of the only hands that make sense.

    Bluffs: there's no flush draw. Is he really bluffing with a bare J? Generic 1/2 opponent is under bluffing, so I don't want to give V any air.

    On the other hand we are at the very tip top of our range, which is a reason to GII. I just don't know what we're hoping he has.

    In conclusion, fold pre. But as played I think a fold on the turn might be correct. Incredibly hard to think that in the moment tho. I am certain that I would have called.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file