Turn probe, 3 bet pot.

EmanuelUEmanuelU Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
edited August 23 in Online Poker Hands
Do you C-bet this flop, or go for the turn C-bet instead? I figured this board was not the best for C-betting as I am not drawing to the nuts.

Does the principles we learned in probe bets apply to the 3bet pot? Should we C-bet this board in the 3bet pot?

What is your plan if you 1) raise or 2) call ?


PokerStars - $0.50 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 79 BB
MP: 111.48 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
MP+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
Hero (CO): 100 BB
BTN: 149.44 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
SB: 58.82 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 17.42, PFR: 10.61, 3Bet Preflop: 4.08, Hands: 135)
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 5.56, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 18)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has :Qs :Ac

fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, fold, MP+1 calls 6 BB

Flop: (19.5 BB, 2 players) :6h :3d :8c
MP+1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: (19.5 BB, 2 players) T:club:
MP+1 bets 13.88 BB

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,402 -
    edited August 23
    If we follow Adam Jones' finding that preflop defenders tend to overfold the flop in 3-bet pots, a c-bet seems warranted.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭✭
    This board is strongly in the advantage of PFR as RA is nut advantage. You have to c-bet often - if not all of your range.

    If you check (?), it's hard to turn AQ into a bluff catcher. On one side you block potential bluff (AJ, KQs) but not the value combos (like JJ) - even if you block QQ. I think I prefer to call with JT or with combos having improved on turn (club FD, SD) and raise with AQ - as I'd with AA if I decided to check flop.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A two thirds pot bet is not a probe by any useful definition.

    Cbet flop; check back hands that are pure give ups and others that can continue.
  • EmanuelUEmanuelU Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    Ok I didn't realise probe bet meant a small bet, I thought it was a synonym to a donk bet by OOP after a declined c-bet by IP.

    What does RA mean? How is three small rainbow uncoordinated strongly in the 3-betters advantage?

    Thanks!
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭✭
    RA = Range Advantage
  • KottonCandyKottonCandy Hudson Valley, NYRed Chipper Posts: 870 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    A two thirds pot bet is not a probe by any useful definition.

    Cbet flop; check back hands that are pure give ups and others that can continue.

    Standard flop cbet in a 3b pot is about 50-65%, correct?

    What percentage would an OOP probe lie in?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 28
    I would imagine a 30-70% cbet size range across the entire spectrum of 3b pot scenarios would be standard.

    The probe doesn't need to be large verging on polar to capitalize on the PFR's xb range. When it is this large, in other words, it is not likely to be a simple probe but instead having a range of more particular bluffs and value behind it.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 517 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    This board is strongly in the advantage of PFR as RA is nut advantage. You have to c-bet often - if not all of your range.

    This seems contradictory to me: PFR (villain) has a strong advantage so we have to c-bet often?

  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    This board is strongly in the advantage of PFR as RA is nut advantage. You have to c-bet often - if not all of your range.

    This seems contradictory to me: PFR (villain) has a strong advantage so we have to c-bet often?

    Hero 3b so he is the one considered to be the raiser while Villain is the caller heading to the flop.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 517 ✭✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    This board is strongly in the advantage of PFR as RA is nut advantage. You have to c-bet often - if not all of your range.

    This seems contradictory to me: PFR (villain) has a strong advantage so we have to c-bet often?

    Hero 3b so he is the one considered to be the raiser while Villain is the caller heading to the flop.

    Alright, but how does hero have nut advantage when he doesn't have sets in his range but villain does?
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭✭
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Ninjah wrote: »
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    This board is strongly in the advantage of PFR as RA is nut advantage. You have to c-bet often - if not all of your range.

    This seems contradictory to me: PFR (villain) has a strong advantage so we have to c-bet often?

    Hero 3b so he is the one considered to be the raiser while Villain is the caller heading to the flop.

    Alright, but how does hero have nut advantage when he doesn't have sets in his range but villain does?

    It's only 9 combos on a dry, disconnected flop. If he has all of the sets, which he may or may not, then he also has a lot of Broadway air. Run the equities and see what it gives you.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4
    A probe bet by definition is when the OOP players fires the turn when the IP missed his CB on flop.
    @persuadeo you should revisit the definition ;)

    And if you CB the turn after checking back the flop as the PFR as in this scenario, it is called a Delayed-CB not a turn CB, because for you to make a CB on turn you would have needed to CB the flop first.

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4
    And regarding the hand, the check back with AQo is fine to me. You got 2 over cards with no re-draw in a 3B pot, let's not get too excited. Having RA doesn't mean you need to bet the flop 100% of the time. It is a simplified way of playing.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No one who uses emojis gets to tell me how to use a word.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,402 -
    persuadeo wrote: »
    No one who uses emojis gets to tell me how to use a word.

    I think we should adopt that as official RCP policy.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • obliviusoblivius San FranciscoRed Chipper Posts: 92 ✭✭
    I think a small cbet makes sense on this board. We'd do it with strong hands and some bluffs. Not saying that AQ is necessarily a bluff here. We have position and some SDV so what's the EV checking OTF then x/calling turn? What's V's call 3b range? 66-TT, AQo, ATs-AQs,KQs-T9s, KJs or similar. Does V fold everything that's not a pair or better? The draws are minimal for both ranges... A flop check to me is a give up. How wrong is this viewpoint? Thanks
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 4
    oblivius wrote: »
    I think a small cbet makes sense on this board. We'd do it with strong hands and some bluffs. Not saying that AQ is necessarily a bluff here. We have position and some SDV so what's the EV checking OTF then x/calling turn? What's V's call 3b range? 66-TT, AQo, ATs-AQs,KQs-T9s, KJs or similar. Does V fold everything that's not a pair or better? The draws are minimal for both ranges... A flop check to me is a give up. How wrong is this viewpoint? Thanks

    SDV don't matter on flop, it is a old flawed way of thinking. A flop check is nowhere near giving up. You can't just blast boards because you deduce you have RA, the more your game will be tougher as you progress, the more you'll get into problem thinking that way and since you'll have it ingrain in you so deeply you'll have hard time removing this thought process. Also on mid-connected boards, small CB don't fair well.

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