The Table of Nightmares

CrodigglyCrodiggly SF Bay AreaRed Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
[long post, thanks for reading]

I had a rough session Tuesday night - I probably should have quit 2 hours before I finally did, but my buddy was playing a tournament so I stayed in my seat until he busted. I want to describe the table and solicit your feedback on what adjustments to make. I'll share what adjustments I did make, but also that those adjustments did not work, at least not in a results-oriented sense. Overall, reflecting on the night, I feel like a played ok, not terrible but not great. Let me know if you agree.

Setting: The Venetian, 1-3 NL Holdem
I love the Venetian

The Beginning: Crushing
In my first 2 orbits, I got run over by the deck. I flopped top trips vs. an overpair, 2pair vs. TPTK, and flopped broadway against a flush draw that bricked. My $300 buy-in was up to $750 in about 25 minutes.

A couple players busted and a couple new ones took their place. From this point forward, I would slowly bleed for the next 3.5 hours.

The Table
Seat 1: Quiet man, calls every suited or Jx+ hand preflop. Will call flop with any pair or any draw.
Seat 2: Quiet woman, plays exactly the same as seat 1
Seat 3: Young aggro guy. Never raises to less than 10x the BB, Always bets pot. Actually pretty tight preflop and value-oriented. Got absolutely crushed by cruel fate.
Seat 4: My enemy - he has airpods (I hate airpods), stacks his chips messily, bets messily, is just messy and I don't like his face. Plays similar to seats 1 and 2, but much more aggressive when he has a piece of the flop. Always straddles the button. Drinking shock top (I hate shock top). Only speaks to order another shock top.
Seat 5: Big stack - super friendly. Very tight and aggressive. Clearly a reg. Awesome dude.
Seat 6: Me
Seat 7: Friendly, on-vacation, drunk guy. Probably a pretty good player. Drunk. Seems to play well despite being drunk. Probably thinks he's a TAG but playing too loose because he's drunk. Always straddles the button.
Seat 8: Your weird uncle. Lots of inappropriate jokes. Plays 1% of hands. Only shows down AA (twice). Never entered another pot.
Seat 9: ATM - bought in max, called every bet on every street of every hand until he was out of money, bought in max again and repeated this cycle 3 times. After his third bust out, left and I took his seat to get away from seat 4.

My Play
I generally like to play a little looser preflop in these games because I find that people with top pair plus pay off at an insanely high rate, so implied odds hands do really well for me, but after 2 orbits with this crew, I adjusted to a very value-heavy preflop range. I got really tight from all positions. A little looser late, but not much.

When I raised, I was raising pretty big but it didn't deter the players in seats 1, 2, and 4. $25 straight and all 3 would call. When I raised small a couple times, I got 3bet by the aggro guys, so I went back to raising big. I never got a big enough hand to small raise hoping for the 3bet, though I was planning this line if it ever happened.

Most hands I played were some variation of this theme. Seats 1, 2, and 4 limp. I raise. They all call. I miss the flop and cbet if it's a good board to cbet. At least 1 of them calls and then leads the turn and I fold.

The alternate theme was, Seats 1, 2, and 4 limp. I raise. They all call. I hit the flop and value bet heavy. Someone calls and makes a flush on the river and I either fold when they lead or check behind and lose at showdown.

The only really big losing hand, I had 33 in the BB vs. button straddle. I raised and he 3bet minimum so I called and took a flop. Flop 9 high, he bet small so I call. Check-through turn when the third flush card hits. River puts 4 to a straight on the board and he bets an odd amount (I think it was $27 into a ~$70 pot). I felt so bluffy with a hand like AQ that missed the board completely so I called. He did have AQ, but it was the nut flush.

So for 4 hours I gave back $600 in $15-$40 increments, about 1-2 hands per orbit. I was simmering inside but I 99% stuck to my game plan, and only won a couple pots when I deviated (i.e. limped 76o in the BB vs. button straddle in a 7-way pot, flopped a straight and got one street of value from seat 1 before he folded the turn).

Results: -$156 in 4:10
Pots won without showdown: 3-5
Pots won at showdown: 5 in the first 25 minutes, 2 in the remainder of the session
Confidence: down 38%

Please advise

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,402 -
    I don't understand nor like your seat change.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,095 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I don't understand nor like your seat change.

    He hates Shock Top.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,402 -
    Strangely Shock Top was the last beer I ever drank.

    I have decreased my input here on soft skills because the mood of the forum seems far more interested in proper poker theory, but there are some points that interest me, plus I enjoyed reading this little tale despite being puzzled by it...
    Crodiggly wrote: »
    I generally like to play a little looser preflop in these games because I find that people with top pair plus pay off at an insanely high rate, so implied odds hands do really well for me, but after 2 orbits with this crew, I adjusted to a very value-heavy preflop range. I got really tight from all positions.

    What you generally do sounds sensible at the V, at least if stacks are deep enough, so why did you change that approach and tighten up? I don't see anything in the description of how your opponents were playing that would necessitate such a change in play style. If your approach was to play a little looser preflop because your main plan was to barrel Vegas nits off hands postflop, and you instead ran into sticky players, I'd get it. But from what I can make out, and particularly when you were in your original configuration in seat 6 with 1- 2- and 4- all limp-cally, I don't see why you'd tighten up.

    Which gets us to the seat change. If you tightened up after moving into the 9, that does make sense, because you now have 3 people to your left who will usually have position on you and are calling a lot pre. So you have to tighten up. Which is why I cannot fathom why you made this seat change. In addition to having the annoyance of playing OOP a lot and only getting one button per orbit, you've given up most of your easy isos.

    Additional micro-point. The 9-seat at the V is awful for looking left and seeing what players behind you are going to do. It's usually the worst seat anyway, but the shape of the tables at V seem to compel the dealers to sit really deep in the box, so by moving into it you throw away the information you can easily gather from the 6.
    Crodiggly wrote: »
    Most hands I played were some variation of this theme. Seats 1, 2, and 4 limp. I raise. They all call. I miss the flop and cbet if it's a good board to cbet. At least 1 of them calls and then leads the turn and I fold.

    So... maybe they were paying attention? Depending on your exact c-bet frequency, if you c-bet and then invariably fold to a turn lead, you're going to get reverse floated on the flop and bet into on the turn a lot. Incidentally, in Vegas these out-of-flow turn stabs typically indicate weakness, particularly if they are small.
    Crodiggly wrote: »
    The alternate theme was, Seats 1, 2, and 4 limp. I raise. They all call. I hit the flop and value bet heavy. Someone calls and makes a flush on the river and I either fold when they lead or check behind and lose at showdown.

    Uhm... how many times did that actually happen in your 4-hour nightmare?
    Crodiggly wrote: »
    I was simmering inside but I 99% stuck to my game plan

    You sure?

    I'd be interested to know how often you play. I realize it's completely subjective, but what you call a table of nightmares I suspect most Vegas regs would call "Tuesday". It's also possible it wouldn't even have registered as a bad dream had it not been for the fact you got up quite a bit early and ended up down. (If only that idiot friend of yours had busted the tournament, you could have booked a $450 win!)

    More generally, when I've objectively analysed nightmare sessions I often found that either they weren't that nightmarish, or they were, but I'd been eating cheese before bedtime.

    If I'd played this session and was trying to learn from it, I'd do some research on c-betting frequencies in multiway pots against wide ranges.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Crodiggly wrote: »
    Seats 1, 2, and 4 limp. I raise. They all call. I miss the flop and cbet if it's a good board to cbet.

    There is no such thing against 3 call stations.
    Crodiggly wrote: »
    At least 1 of them calls and then leads the turn and I fold.

    Shocker!
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,749 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I'd be interested to know how often you play. I realize it's completely subjective, but what you call a table of nightmares I suspect most Vegas regs would call "Tuesday". It's also possible it wouldn't even have registered as a bad dream had it not been for the fact you got up quite a bit early and ended up down.

    Yeah, that sounds like some random Tuesday that I forgot about by the next session. Except it was 8 hours of suffering, not 4.

  • CrodigglyCrodiggly SF Bay AreaRed Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    As usual - really appreciate the perspective and thoughtful responses on this forum. I realize my OP is somewhat off-beat, so thanks for cutting through that and giving me some food for thought.

    I guess the dynamic at this table just felt like an exaggerated version of my least favorite table dynamic, multiple calling stations at the table, so I have to catch cards and value bet vs. getting very aggressive with mediocre hands and bluffs, which I just plainly find more enjoyable.

    But I really do hate shock top.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 479 ✭✭✭
    Shock Top is -EV and we all know it.
  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
    From your description of the "Table" it seems to me that you really made it personal with your view of seat 4. Making it personal is never good for your game (especially if the V couldn't care less). You may not think so but a little tilt probably crept into your game. Try to depersonalize things. I know it's not easy, I've been there myself!

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