Interesting KK hand review

KindaKaiKindaKai Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
1/3 live cash 9 handed

First timer at this particular room in north of Sacramento. Just bubbled out from the WSOPC event on Friday.

Villain A: Seems solid. TAG. 800-ish stack. Seat 7.
Villain B: Seems like a decent recreational. LAG. 600-ish stack. Seat 4
Hero: Seat 3 with 600-ish stack. Intended playing style is LAG and exploitative. Just started to try playing an exploitative style for few weeks. Would like to construct my image as a fish at this new game. Game seems pretty good. Couples of OMC, banker at the black jack table playing, and some recs.

Pre Flop:
Straddle's on, $9. 4 callers to Hero wakes up in bb with KK at the SB and raises to 45. Villain B, UTG, to my left, cold calls, OMCs folds, and Villain A, MP1, completes the action. (Pot: 150).

Thoughts: at this point, Hero worries about Villain B cold calling range could be so wide. He is calling most of his straddle if raised. Hero put Villain A on some suited connectors, suited broadways, suited aces, and small to mid pairs.

Flop comes :Qd:Jc:8d two diamonds. Hero c-bets 55 and both Vs snap calls. (Pot: 345)

Thoughts: After seeing the somewhat scary board, hero choose this small sizing (65) is trying to keep my range wide. No ace on the flop seems okay to let the Vs to chase.

Question 1: is my sizing a bit too small here? Would a 70 to 80 c-bet be more appropriate?

Turn: 10x. Hero stalls for a while and checks, VB leads out 65, VA thinks about it for a while and calls. Hero tank calls. (Pot: 540)

Thoughts: Hero check for pot control and also now is four to a straight. 9T flops it, 9J and 79 turns it and some broadways flop two pair. Now I put VA on a flush draw, possibly a combo draw with ATdd. I was thinking to raise 200 for a one and done to squeeze out two pair and flush draw at first, however VB range seems gets there the sizing is so small that I can't call.

Question 2: would a raise be justified here? if so, what's the sizing?

River: brick. Action checks through.

Thoughts: Flush didn't get there but due to the position it's better to check-call than bet-call.

Question 3: Would a thin value bet (100~120) be justified here given flush doesn't get there?

Question 4: Is my whole line really exploitative here? or a bit too nitty? I'd been showing pure bluffs and semi-bluff previously pre and post flops.

Side Questions: if you had the ATdd, what would you do on the flop and turn?

Any thought, suggestion and question are always welcomed. Just trying to improve here. Results will be posted tonight. Thanks a lot and hope you guys run good and play even better! Cheers!



  • March422March422 Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    I would maybe size up a little since we really cant be raising here much given being oop in a 3bb straddle pot making our stack 60bb eff.

    On the flop im really not scared of this scary board. I think vs can have alot of pr +draw here. Given PF action i would rule out QQ and JJ for sets. leaving 2 combos QJs 4 combos 9Ts and 3 combos of 88.
    I would look to bet 100-150 for max value here on this board and if raised i think we go with it. Our hand isnt really going to get better with most turn cards but i would say we have the best hand now on the flop. If we bet somewhere in that range we can ship it in on the turn and live with the results.

    As played on the turn i am really tempted to shove over this tiny probe looking bet and weak looking overcall. Its definitely possible v's have 9x but again given pf action i think AK is unlikely (especially from the limper ) so villains are capped, and we block AK pretty hard and AK makes up a really big chunk of our range here. Even if v does make a hero call we have outs.
  • Cracked_Jacks11Cracked_Jacks11 Red Chipper Posts: 51 ✭✭
    Am I understanding correctly that the straddle was $9? If so, I think your pre-flop raise should be much larger. A very general rule of thumb is 3x the blind/straddle, plus 1 blind/straddle for each limper, then perhaps add another blind/straddle or two when out of position. Using this general rule, the absolute smallest I would raise pre-flop would be about $63, and being out of position I personally would make it more like $75. This will clear out more of the limpers more often and make your post-flop range analysis a bit easier. If you get called by only 1 person with this bigger sizing then there is ~$190 in the pot, and you have ~$525 in your stack. SPR <3:1 with KK means I'm probably committed to getting my stack in on most boards, so your decisions are made easier for the whole hand as a result of your pre-flop play.

    As March mentioned above, I don't think you have as much to fear on this "scary board" as you think. There aren't that many combos that are beating you, but lots of worse hands that will call a bet (pair + gutshot mostly). For that reason I don't think this is a good situation for a down-bet. Betting larger to extract value will be a much more profitable play for you in the long run.
  • Chris_VChris_V BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
    edited September 2019
    Interesting hand with a pretty scary flop if our opponents know how to take advantage. What do we think the villains ranges are preflop? What's our range?

    If you had the TAG's (Villain A's) range on the flop and the OOP preflop raiser bet one third pot how could you punish them?
  • PapaGiorgioPapaGiorgio Red Chipper Posts: 81 ✭✭
    I agree that PF raise sizing could be bigger because you are OOP in the hand. I disagree with the flop cbet in this situation for the reasons that you encountered. Given the flop texture, I don't expect to get many folds, and even hands that crush us will probably just call leaving us wonder if we're still good on the turn. Hands that would fold the flop are highly likely to fold to a turn cbet, so why not delay cbetting until the turn? My plan would be to check call flop for "protection", which really means to protect my equity against a possible shove that would make me fold the possible best hand (I'm crushed by the raiser or ahead against a hand with great equity). If checked through, then you can bet turn. If you check-called the flop, then I would check turn. Calling vs raising on the turn depends on who bet, how much they bet, and whether I hold the Kd.
  • Doogal_DDoogal_D Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    I've only recently started posting, so this is a long analysis for me. Please, everyone, feel free to point out any flaws in my thinking, or aspects you think I didn't consider.

    First off, I would want to clarify the following:

    Preflop:Do you have the :Kd ?
    That would make a difference on how you should approach this. Since you didn't specify, I'm going to assume you didn't have it, as it should be noteworthy if you held that card.
    Flop:What are you trying to accomplish with your C-Bet?
    If you think you're betting for value, then bet bigger. Consider what you would want to do with your bluffs, and try to size similarly; it's okay to go bigger with your value hands than your bluffs if your opponents won't notice, but it can't be way out of line (if you bet 1/7th Pot on a bluff, would you realistically expect any opponent to fold a better hand?). 1/7th pot doesn't scare anyone away unless they have an absolute trash hand that completely missed the Flop (i.e. no pairs AND don't have any overcards, BDFD, BDSD, etc.) and you aren't getting money from those hands anyways. Basically, you aren't folding out anything that you'd be worried about, and you aren't getting any good value from hands you want to string along.
    Turn: What were you worried about here / What was your goal?
    You just walked into an OESD with TP. Yes, 9x hands get there, but they are by no means the nuts; you raised Preflop, and made a small bet on the Flop. You could have AK, any set, any 2P, and potentially a 9x hand yourself (particularly A9s K9s)... I'm not sure why you tank called. You've got plenty of equity, and the decision should have been perhaps to Check-Raise vs Check-Call. Yes, a small sizing by Villain B could be value, but it's so small that really, who cares? If they were trying to get true value out of their straight, I feel like they would have made it bigger with the FD out there, along with the possibility that any Kx hand could improve to a better straight by the River. It's possible they have 2P, which may explain such a tiny bet, but again, I would expect a larger bet in an attempt for them to suss out if anyone has actually hit their straight / is on a good FD. And since an A or 9 can always roll off and make your day by the river, you've got equity. For this reason, I think that you may want to Check-Raise in this scenario. Don't forget that you have good blocking for that actual nut SD that everyone else needs to worry about.
    I've got nothing to clarify on this one. The check makes sense, given how the rest of the hand was played. You've kind of got to make a decision on what you think each opponent actually has if they bet out. They might shove, but I don't think you would realistically fold out any 9x hands by shoving yourself here.

    As for what my thoughts on the hand are (sorry for any repeating from above):
    Preflop: I'm not sure how much emphasis you would associate with the term "worry" (i.e. do you mean "aware of" or "concerned about"?), but I wouldn't worry about their wide range. It is what it is. They've likely got a wide range; they straddled UTG, so they're here to gamble (at least right now), and I would probably only discount things worse than 75s. You can start to narrow that wide range down on the Flop.
    Flop: I would have checked. If they're both calling a 5x Preflop raise off a straddle like that so easily, I would expect at least one of them to have a Q or J and want to take a stab at this board with a FD out there (or even build a pot for their FD). You know you likely have the best hand, as I assume Villain B likely 3Bets QQ and sometimes JJ Preflop (if they have 88, then so be it. This is where it's nice to know if you have :KD: ). :JD: Jx isn't even sitting pretty when calling this Flop as they could still potentially have some Reverse Implied Odds working against them if they're up against an :AD: or :KD: FD, so I would expect them to raise it up off of your small C-Bet.
    Turn: I would have Check-Raised to 170 - 200 (larger if you think that Villain B will call and then Villain A would call after). 2P and even sets will have to think about their holdings since there's a FD and 4 to a straight; you have equity when called given that an A or 9 give you straight. My aim would be to make sure a FD doesn't get the odds to call. If they call (and possibly hit it), then you know they are making an incorrect call and can use that going forward. If someone disregards the fact that they gave themselves a disadvantage, then you should keep pressing those situations whenever you can. They got lucky this time, but they'll end up paying you off over time.
    River: I'm good with the check here, just to see what people have. I don't think there are any worse hands that are calling your bet.

    To summarize:
    Question 1: If you're planning on C-Betting, then yes, your sizing is too small. Go with at least 150. But I would have checked.
    Question 2: I assume this question is asking if a Check-Raise would have been justified on the Turn. I would say YES. The min. bet (130) should technically do it, depending on what you put your opponents on, but it works for a FD. The pot is 475 before you bet, so you have to look at the odds of what may call you (i.e. FD has at least ~20% equity vs any made hand, and a raise of 130 into 475 puts the odds around 21.5% for Villain B. I would size up to 170 or 200 just to be sure, because anytime Villain B calls, Villain A's odds get better.
    Question 3: I don't know if a thin value bet is worth it here, as it sucks if someone raises you. I would check and hope you don't get raised. If you get raised, you'll have too decide if you think this person is capable of bluffing 1P in this spot.
    Question 4: I think your line could have been better. If you'd been showing bluffs and semi-bluffs previously, I think you should have tried pushing with your bets. If your assumption is people aren't going to believe you have it, then bump up the pot with your KK. It came :QD::JC::8D:. Unless they have a set, which I don't think they have outside of 88 (as listed above), you've likely got the best hand. Let their Qx and Jx think you're trying to push them off their hands.
    Side Question: I think if I had :AD::TD: then I would be Check-Raising here. You've got roughly 25% equity here between your SD and FD so it's a good candidate to try and get the money now, but holding up okay if you get called.
  • KindaKaiKindaKai Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited September 2019
    Thank you all for the replies and sorry for the late reply and missing an important details. I did have the :Kd. I will post the following as a general reply and a reflection. After it, I will reply all of you specifically.

    Result was that straddling V(B) had KQo, and V(A) in later position had :Ad:3d.
    I luckily took the pot.

    One interesting comment made by V(A) after the hand was that, he was hoping for one of us to raise on the turn so he could jam. I think it would be a good play for him to apply maximum fold equity since he covered both of us, and having both nut flush and straight draws.

    I posted this hand on other forums too and the most suggested advice was that I should raise pre-flop much larger. I like the reasoning of $75 as Cracked_Jacks suggested, and will take that in mind.

    My thought at the time was that, the straddling V (B), sitting on my left, had been straddling all game and I showed KTo in one similar occasion when I raised to 45. I was trying to use the same sizing to balance the strength of my hand. (I still don't know if it's a good idea or not tbh)

    In terms of V(A), I hadn't played many hands against him, but my impression was he's solid and tight like a rock.

    Regarding to the size of the c-bet, I was kind of conflicting with my thoughts: 1) trying to charge the draws; 2) but at the same time wanted to tell a story that I didn't have overpairs or set. But after your comments, I realized that my c-bet sizing didn't accomplish any of both goals. So a delay c-bet would be more appropriate and if I chose to C-bet, the sizing should be much larger.

    Turn card really froze me. Any 9's get there. I was putting straddling V(B) could have any 9's, since he had been calling most of the raise on his straddle. He could have some combos of 89, 9T, J9, QT, QJ and maybe AJ, AQ. In hindsight, his bet of $65 was a bet to see where he's at, as he has only top pair. I think it's a one and done bet. He could also use it as bait if he decided to tell a story that he got there. But to do this, he needed to bomb the river.

    in terms of a check-raise on the turn, I really still don't know about, especially after hearing what V(A) said after the hand.

    River: After reading all of yours comments, a thin value bet is a trouble maker. No worse hand would call and better hands (9's) will raise not to mention calling. I was getting greedy lol. As the result shown, I was lucky that it checked through. I don't know if I could hero call if one of Vs bomb the pot.

    As of ATdd, I would probably play it by raising, or jamming the turn, as V(A) commented after the hand, or even maybe raising the flop.

    All in all, thank you all, March,Cracked Jacks, Chris, Papa and Doogal, for taking your time for reading my post and analyzed it with questions and advices. It really helped my a lot by giving new perspectives and pointing out flaws on my line. I really appreciate it. Special thanks to Doogal_D for your thorough analysis, I learn a lot from your reasoning. If this reply didn't answer some of your questions that you asked, please feel free to point it out so I can revise it again.

    Wish all of you the best in the future streets.


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