KK hand

Rich57Rich57 Red Chipper Posts: 110 ✭✭
MGM NLH 1-3
I recently sat down, no real read yet on players, only about one orbit and change. V1 has played 4-5 hands out of the dozen or so I have seen and taken down three by betting on the turn/river and splitting one win/one loss at showdown. Not afraid to play and likes to check flop and bet turn and river if flop checks through. V2 is an OMC who likes to get into action and is somewhat sticky (later very sticky). I bought in for 500 and have about 850 after turning a set of tens against a set of nines a couple hands prior. V1 has me covered, V2 has around 200.
V2 opens from UTG for 12
V1 raises to 25 from MP2
Folds to me on BB with :Kc :Kd
I four bet to 65 (around three times the size of the three bet). Methinks something bigger might have been better
V2 folds, V1 calls
Flop 140 is :3h :3s :4d
V1 checks
I bet 95. I did not think that his four-bet calling range included anything that would have a three or four, mostly 88-QQ, AKs, AQs, AKo.
V1 hesitated a moment and called
Turn 320 was :8h
V1 checks
I thought for a moment. If I bet pot size or larger (which I think would be the option if I bet at all) then I haven't got enough to pressure on the river if he calls and would likely have to consider folding to a check raise. I also felt that his calling the flop bet made my assessment of his range more solid. There were already 100+ BB in the middle and was not sure that I wanted to risk my entire stack on an overpair. I decided to check back and see the river.
I will post results at the end but I would appreciate some analysis of how this hand was played.

Comments

  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 497 ✭✭✭
    I'd have gone larger with the 4-bet solely because you note V is sticky.

    Postflop, based on the range you assigned, this looks like Monster Under the Bed Syndrome (MUBS). The range you assign to V has 3 combos of hands that beat you and 24 combos of made hands that you currently beat.

    So I think we can make a clear value bet. I would be the turn for ~175 or so. We can then likely bet a number of rivers for value as well.

    What are you betting here for value if not KK?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Look at this way: if you are not betting the top of your range on the turn, how are you ever managing to bet the bottom? Your strategy is simultaneously destroyed and balanced by this turn check but clearly subject to money pressure.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,497 -
    On the flop your analysis suggests you are way ahead with a non-vulnerable hand, right? And the turn changes nothing. And your opponent's range includes 99-QQ which is going to be reluctant to fold. So betting the flop is good although I think that sizing is a bit big.

    On the turn you say: If I bet pot size or larger (which I think would be the option if I bet at all) then I haven't got enough to pressure on the river if he calls

    I don't understand the logic here, maybe you could elaborate? Why is an unnaturally large bet the only option?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Rich57Rich57 Red Chipper Posts: 110 ✭✭
    Thank you all for the insights.
    Jordan, your comments make perfect sense and this can be seen as a missed opportunity. For my own edification, what rivers would NOT invite a value bet on this?
    Persuadeo, As always you cut to the heart of things. I thought long and hard about the money aspect afterward, but in real time I thought only about the recent Core lesson ( I am finally seriously studying in Level 2) on being careful with deep stack pots with a top pair hand. Or maybe subconsciously I did not want to risk a good beginning to the session on a single hand. That could have been under there somewhere as well.
    GameKat, My thought at the time was that if he had a solid hand I should push for maximum value, thus the inclination toward betting large or checking as per the deep stack protection concept which i apparently am not understanding well enough
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,497 -
    If you check back the turn I think you're tacitly assuming 2 related things: 1) A bet will fold out all the hands you're beating; 2) A check will encourage V to lead the river with a hand you're beating or to check-call with a losing hand they would have check-folded on the turn.

    My simple-minded way of looking at this is that V should recognize your range contains a lot of big pairs. Thus it's not completely clear if you can get 3 streets from 99-QQ. So the question is: what action do you take that maximizes the $$$ your opponent puts in the pot when they are crushed.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 497 ✭✭✭
    I think in this instance the dreaded A is a bad card to go for value as any nut flush draws that missed just spiked top pair. Additionally, the A might incentivize hands you are beating to fold because "ugh AK got there"; it depends on V: if they are going to bluff catch their turn overpairs on the river then you can likely still bet for value but it will be thinner.

    Other than that, you have the same issue of some larger cards killing your action or putting V ahead so I probably am not betting a Q or J here as 99 and TT are unlikely to call a third barrel so when you get action, you're likely losing more than half the time and thus we are not value betting anymore. Maybe a non-heart Q isn't so bad as V could have AQhh and just spiked top pair. But perhaps a check/call line is better anyway in that scenario.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,778 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9
    in real time I thought only about the recent Core lesson ( I am finally seriously studying in Level 2) on being careful with deep stack pots with a top pair hand.

    Technically you have an overpair, but anyway....

    Your description of an OMC has me wrinkling my forehead a bit.... p.s. If I was V1 AA would also be part of my range here. Although I agree for many people it would not. If V2 is actually OMC and V1 is actually aware, then I doubt his raising range is as wide as you say because a lot of the range you have specified is dominated and wants to see a flop. But it sounds like V2 is not really OMC. Also I get not wanting to go broke with a pair in deep stack situation, but this is not a deep stack situation, especially when you consider that it was 4-bet preflop. Also we can range merge sometimes, and also we are heads up with quite narrow ranges so we can think this through a bit. Are you ever really going to have quad 3s here? Are quads and boats a large part of your opponent's range?

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