44 set mine in $1/1 game

SixthStreetSixthStreet Red Chipper Posts: 255 ✭✭
7 handed
MP opens to $8, ($80 eff)
BTN calls ($300 eff)
SB calls ($120 eff)
Hero BB calls :4d :4s ($170 eff)
pot $32
Flop :As :7h :4h
MP bets $20 his C-bet is AT+ if he checks TT-KK He doesn't raise often and top 5-7%
BTN calls his rainge is much wider i put him on SD or FD
SB calls he has huge calling range so same he is on SD or FD
Hero Jams I will say BTN and SB are very sticky with draws so might have no fold equity.
MP & BTN fold
SB gives it a short thought than calls with $92 left. Flips over :Ah :3h
Turn :2h
River :8c
So was jam best +EV? I ran some math SB call was good. In the moment I thought was pricing out draws when I jammed.

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,497 -
    On the flop you correctly conclude you have the best hand and get AI. Not sure how you can improve on that.
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  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,778 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9
    So was jam best +EV? I ran some math SB call was good. In the moment I thought was pricing out draws when I jammed.

    My quick check is that his call is slightly not good. But for sake of argument let's just say his call is good.

    There are some situations in poker where you simply can't price your opponent out, yet putting as much money in as you can is still good. While the point of poker is often described as making your opponent make mistakes, sometimes this is not possible and both players are playing correctly. While this seems counter intuitive, it works because either other players have put in extra money badly, or your opponent has put in money badly previous to this decision, or both. In this case we don't know what everyone else has, but we know your opponent put in money bad preflop (this is actually hard to determine, but definitely in terms of hot/cold equity against you.) Presumably other players put money in bad on the flop. So in a way while your opponent made a good call*, he was subsidizing his own pot odds with previous mistakes.

    Moral of the story: just because you can't price out draws doesn't mean you shouldn't shovel money in.

    *but I don't think so :)
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    only time you will be behind is when you have a hand other than a set (which could turn into a full house) against an open ended straight flush draw which by then you will be 55% vs 45% .... so yes you were ahead ...

    poker is not black and white, you will sometimes be ahead and sometimes behind vs all their possible hands and actions ... you just want to be ahead enough more often then behind.... nothing more...
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  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭✭
    There is here a slight misunderstanding, which lead to the answers of @jeffnc and @RCP Coach - Fausto Valdez
    So was jam best +EV? I ran some math SB call was good. In the moment I thought was pricing out draws when I jammed.

    Fausto answered to the question "Am I ahead often of the time ?" when Jeff answer to the pot odds you gave to Villain. Not exactly the same questions, but both are interesting.
    And there is still the non answered question "is a jam maxEV?" (asking if there is a better / more optimal line).

    Their answer are good, I'd yet give an extra to them
    jeffnc wrote: »
    There are some situations in poker where you simply can't price your opponent out, yet putting as much money in as you can is still good.
    This is the concept of "dead money" (usually the pot) or to be precise "passive dead money" and "aggressive dead money" (to describe how a player is filling the pot: by calling or betting/raising). It's a rather advance concept. This impacts the size of the pot - and the pot odds on this streets and next ones.
    only time you will be behind is when you have a hand other than a set (which could turn into a full house) against an open ended straight flush draw which by then you will be 55% vs 45% .... so yes you were ahead ...
    Also you ( @SixthStreet ) should think in terms of range. Would Villain bet/call with a worst hand: 2P? good TP ? Bad TP ? nut FD? Any FD? Others combos (OESD, 7X, KK, combo with bckFD, etc) ?
    Here, considering the effective stacks, you will play for stacks against a lot of worst hand. Yes, you will occasionally face AA and 77, but these are only a part of V range.
    And be happy he called you with :AH: :3H: : this is the hand you want V to call you with - a worst hand aka a hand you win often in the long run.
    So was jam best +EV?
    MP bet into several players into a dangerous board (AQo could easily be out drawn). BU called IP, yet with many players still to act; probably a meh hands or a ok-ish hand played in a passive way. SB called OOP MW, which means he is ok to continue and see a turn - I'd say at worst with AT, surely smth better, or a good draw.

    Back at you. If you call, pot will be 112$ so less than a pot bet size left (except towards BU). Money WILL go in.
    There is then 2 issue:
    1. What do you plan to do if turn is :HEART: ?
    2. How would you play your draw like :5C: :6C: , :AH: :5H: or :8S: :7S: ?

    1) If :HEART: spike the turns, it's bad for you. Maybe someone has a flush; and with the remaining stacks, you can't fold, so you "have to" pay their flush. Meh! Also if they don't have the flush, they will fear you might have it and will also be less inclined to pay your set with a marginal hands. Meh! You want to put money in the pot before anybody get scared.
    2) If you've a draw (FD, nut FD, OESD, combo bckFD, etc.), you kinda have the right odds to call, but you will be OOP and without initiative (and with 1 PSB). So if you complete, it will be hard to be paid. And if you don't complete, if will be hard to represent strength and steal the pot. So you want to be aggressive and enjoy FE either right now or on later street. (This would be different if you played deep/very deep or if you had position.) So you want to be aggressive and enjoy FE.

    So very often you want to raise. And considering the remaining stacks, it's a shove. I'd say on this flop in this situation, you range is either shove or fold.

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