KQ Suited UTG

NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 73 ✭✭
This one has been bothering me for a few days so I thought I would ask for some opinions.

Aria 1/3. Stacks are about even, right about $300.

I'm UTG with :Ks :Qs

I open for $20 and get...... 4 callers. At this point, I am pretty much shutting it down unless I get a great flop. I don't want to play 5 handed out of position.

Flop($100) is :8s :8d :3h

I check with intention of check/folding but the next player bets $40 and it folds around to me. At this point, I change my plan to see what develops on the turn. I close the action so I think it is worth the $40 investment. Even if just for balance. I almost never limp and don't want anyone to pick up on a raise preflop/fold flop tendency, even though I think it is unlikely. I think his range being the first caller is tighter than if he was the last caller. There are minimal 8s in his range, 89s, 78s. Maybe some small to medium pocket pairs. I rule out JJ, QQ, KK, AA and maybe even 10,10 but that is marginal. In my mind, the only hand I am crushed by is 33. I feel there are lots of good cards that can come on the turn that I can either bet or check/raise or check/call again with.

Turn($180) is :Kc Now I have some equity and are ahead of a ton of his range so I plan on check call, or check then bet river depending on the river card.

He bets $65 so I call.

River($310) is :Th V bets $125

Hero?

Comments

  • MrFussMrFuss Red Chipper Posts: 142 ✭✭
    edited October 14
    I dont see what you're beating here that would fire 3 barrels. He must have something pretty good to bet the flop into 4 players and there's no draws available. I also think he has more 8s in his range then you're giving him. A8s, J8s, T8s, 68s are all possible, at least in the 1/3 games I play.

    Like most poker it comes down to a pretty simple math problem. How many hands in his range that would triple barrel do you beat vs get beat by? Without actually counting I bet he has more nut hands than overpairs. What else is he barreling?

    FWIW you probably should have folded flop. Yeah you're getting a good price but there are better combos in your range to float with. Also your KQ doesnt block any of his combos with an 8.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1) your open is so massive you shouldn't dismiss the idea that even the strongest overpairs can be there.
    2) you don't have float even a small bet made multiway in the scenario where you can be drawing very thin or have RIO.
    3) however, let's say everything you've done until the river is reasonable. Its underlying assumption is that this player is thin valuing an overpair to the flop or finding a bluff, etc.: your assumptions mean you should be calling for this price on the river.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agree ^ it's inconsistent to call twice and then fold. Of course we can discuss your calling twice.....
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16
    @NTD12
    I think your plan/ Line is fine (more so if HU) given your last to act however is important to realize that it will have to be true the player will bet other hands, when their MW stuck in the middle, for protection like his PP and i'm stretching by saying some strong Ax with backdoors

    If those are true then by the river again we have to believe he's turning that same range as a bluff by the river ... the less all of this becomes true ... the more this has to be a fold, perhaps on the flop as well
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  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    At this point, I am pretty much shutting it down unless I get a great flop. I don't want to play 5 handed out of position.
    I check with intention of check/folding but the next player bets $40 and it folds around to me. At this point, I change my plan...

    There is no reason to change your plan, unless..... unless you think the hand went from 5 way to heads up. Which it didn't. Just because it folded to you doesn't make it a heads up hand. The important thing is that your opponent bet into 4 other players before he knew they'd fold. So a hand where someone bets and everyone folds, leaving you now heads up, is different from where someone bets when it's actually heads up.

  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 73 ✭✭
    Thank you all for your input. It is much appreciated. It looks like the flop call was bad. The way I looked at it at the time was there were a lot of good cards on the turn. Any K or J give me top pair and a spade gives me something that I can check raise or lead out with. I just didn't think this player was very strong on this hand. Call it a live read or feeling or what not but his $40 bet just did not "feel" right. I will certainly remember this hand in future spots.

    Once the K hits on the turn I am committed with the odds he gives on the turn and river. I just don't see many 8s that he can play here.

    As far as the $20 open. I find that routinely a $15 open gets called... a lot. It seems like the standard in a lot of these 1/3 games is $15 also. I sized up thinking that I'll be OOP if I get called and wanted to narrow it down to one player...maybe 2. Or if they all folded I would be fine with that also. Not sure why I got 4 callers. Maybe they all had broadway cards and the flop was terrible so they shut it down, like I was going to do. Maybe it was because I had only been at the table for about 10-15 minutes. I don't know.

    Any way I called and V showed.....A6 off suit. This is the real reason I posted this hand. I did not want to just be results oriented. I got some shit from the V about calling and fired back at him. I just went with the live read and in this situation I was right but maybe I was fundamentally wrong. Like I said it just looked not right to me at the time.

  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 73 ✭✭
    edited October 16
    [/quote]

    There is no reason to change your plan, unless..... unless you think the hand went from 5 way to heads up. Which it didn't. Just because it folded to you doesn't make it a heads up hand. The important thing is that your opponent bet into 4 other players before he knew they'd fold. So a hand where someone bets and everyone folds, leaving you now heads up, is different from where someone bets when it's actually heads up.

    [/quote]

    Can you expand on this? I don't quite understand.


    I messed up the quote and don't know how to fix, sorry.


  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Can you expand on this? I don't quite understand.

    You had a plan, and then something made you change it, implying that you're against a single player now, and it's worth it to see the turn card. Originally you seemed to be saying fit or fold in a 5 way hand. (It is still a 5 way hand when villain bets, which is an important piece of information - it's not heads up at this point, so his hand strength is going to be different.)

    Now, you seem to be saying it's a live read based on a feeling, but we didn't have that info in the OP. So I guess I'd say live reads are fine - however they don't translate well into online hand histories. As I'm sure you could guess, we could post any hand at all and then simply say "I had a strong feeling that he was bluffing here", and what can any of us say to that? We weren't there, you were.

    I feel about live reads in hand histories kind of like how I feel about movies with magic in them. They're not very interesting, because when you can justify doing whatever you want in the plot with a wave of the hand, what's the point really? Anything goes and the observer can only say "OK, cool, whatever, I guess."

    In the hand, the 2 players at the table that were least likely to have an 8, or 33 for that matter, in their hand were hero and villain. So I don't think it's a particularly good bluff idea by villain. In hindsight we now know he can have any card in his hand, but this doesn't magically turn him into a winning player.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 73 ✭✭
    Ah, now I understand what you are saying on the flop bet.

    I also know what you are saying about the live read. Not sure how I should communicate in the future when posting a hand?

    LIke I said I really posted because I wanted a fundamental perspective on the hand.
  • MrFussMrFuss Red Chipper Posts: 142 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Guy flats 7x open with A6o, berates OP. Lmao.
    Betting small the whole way too.
  • F0gh0rn1egh0rnF0gh0rn1egh0rn Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    @NTD12 i hope I'm not repeating other posts but here it goes lol. I like to opt for what I think people call a merged range approach in this spot. Instead of opening with a hand that plays this strong post and up against what is seemingly a limpy passive table, I like the limp reraise. With this play and a large enough raise, I can rep KK+ which gets a lot of folds pre. If we go to a flop my hands still plays great even OOP. However, we lead $20 and get called. We check and V bets $40 immediately to our left. He cant really rep an 8 with the preflop call with actors behind and the flop lead on an untextured board, so we call for the reasons you stated. Once the king hits though you should looking to maximize value because we know he doesn't have AA or an 8. I wouldn't expect him to c-bet in that large of a field with AK because every1 acting behind him has more 8's in there range. I would lead on the larger side because usually if he has a middle pair he'd be more willing to check or call than bet. I'd lead probably$140-$150, if he calls the river doesn't matter to me anymore as we've come to far to turn back. I would otherwise consider the 10 a scare card because it would make a lot of sense for him to have pocket tens right here but he's river bet is too small to fold to even though he shouldn't have a lot of river bluffs with such a dry board.

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