Check or bet Ace high flop with TPWK and NFD IP?

LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 540 ✭✭✭
Let's assume:
- We open BTN with Axs with weak kicker (let's say 8 or lower) and get called by BB, 100bb deep
- We flop Axx with the flush draw
- BB checks to us

e.g. we have :AS: :6S:
flop is :AH: :3S: :TS:

Do we bet when checked to?

This spot confuses me, cause on the one hand we have a hand where if we don't make a flush it's hard to get 3 streets (so I'd be less inclined to bet), but on the other hand we want to build a pot for when we make our flush (so I'd be more inclined to bet).

Any thoughts?

Comments

  • EurocratEurocrat Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
    I would assume from a GTO perspective, both plays would be pretty close in EV. Personally, I would say it depends on the villain type. Against a good aggressive reg, I really like to use these hands to balance my checking range. Against weaker players or somebody who likes to float very wide, I think this would be a good spot for betting.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Broadly in a mixed flop strategy you want to divvy up your bets and checks with your aces, flush draws, and aces with the flush draw in order to play well across streets. Because this is one of your weakest aces and strongest draws, by xb you get to land on the turn and river with either a great bluff catcher vs his probes, and/or still have nut flushes in your flop check backs. So check vs rational opponent, but bet vs passive as you never capture EV vs their marginal hands otherwise and thus idea of building a pot applies more than overall strategy.
  • CloutierCloutier Jacksonville, FloridaRed Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    Let me preface by saying that I'm probably severely under-qualified to give an opinion here, but I'm trying to get more involved in the forum in the hopes that I can improve my game and help others here as well.

    So, where I play (1/2nl), depending on how much BB called preflop, I think a bet here would often chase this guy off. I'd have to assume he doesn't have an Ace, but maybe he has some spades. I'd probably check here and bet any turn.

    Again, I'm under-qualified but maybe that helps in some way.
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 228 ✭✭
    Not much to say that hasn't already been said, range vs range and opp. tendencies are the key points here. Does opp. have AJ+ here? Does opp over-value 2nd or 3rd nfds? Does opp. slow-play?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would say bet vs. passive/weak and mix vs. better.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 540 ✭✭✭
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 228 ✭✭
    Where I wonder is when you've paired your 6 instead of A
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭✭✭
    :AS: :6S: on a flop of :6H: :3S: :TS: . Or a flop of :6H: :3S: :2S: . Hard to get 3 streets here too if we don't make a flush, but for a different reason.
  • Cracked_Jacks11Cracked_Jacks11 Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    edited October 21
    jeffnc wrote: »
    :AS: :6S: on a flop of :6H: :3S: :TS: . Or a flop of :6H: :3S: :2S: . Hard to get 3 streets here too if we don't make a flush, but for a different reason.

    precursor: I am probably biased because I have only played live, and I have only played $1/2. I see a lot of strange plays, and I see people get their money in with very unexpected hands. With that in mind, here is what I think in response to Jeff's twist on the question:

    With :As :6s here, I am betting and hoping I get raised. If I do, I am happily jamming. Based on the range I think a typical $1/2 reg would continue with (either calling or raising) hero is a 52% favorite to win the hand. It seems to me a bet on the flop is either building a pot in a great position to win, or folding out hands that wouldn't have continued anyway.

    Here is my perceived continuing range for villain, in case anyone wants to check it out, disagree, point out a flaw in my thinking, or even just make a snarky comment. ;)

    21ugsv0pvg25.png
  • EurocratEurocrat Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
    @Cracked_Jacks11 : Interestingly, I would definitely bet here as well, but I rather then jamming I would call, call most turns and then fold any river unimproved. I'm not a big fan of jamming on the flop with this hand - I don't see the continuing range in the games I play (NL 10 and NL16 online), especially not the TP combos. Rather, you get called by 2P+ against which your equity is not too well in fact (without having checked the math). Against the ckeck-raising range you have fairly easy turn and river decisions, because I would assume it is much more polarized between 2P+ and good draws, so you will mostly find out where you're at.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,809 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eurocrat wrote: »
    @Cracked_Jacks11 : Interestingly, I would definitely bet here as well, but I rather then jamming I would call, call most turns and then fold any river unimproved. I'm not a big fan of jamming on the flop with this hand

    Just keep in mind that if you ever want to shove, you have to shove with balance. Semi-bluffs are good hands to shove with, especially ones with such high equity. Some people will simply see you being "crazy" and "gambling" with just a draw, and you can get a lot of mileage with that. Next time you can shove with a set, and stop this endless slowplaying that so many people do with strong hands.

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭✭
    For me, this is an easy small range bet on the flop.

    If you want to use a larger CB size and therefore mixed strategy. We should be betting quite often with our AsXs combos as they are some of the highest equity hands in our range. With the nut draw we benefit from growing the pot in case we hit, and we can comfortably call a flop XR.

    If you think about your whole range - we have lots of weak AX and TX that can XB the flop to protect our checking range.

    It is probable good to XB a little with As2s... but I think it should be at a low frequency.

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