C-Betting - question about Level 2 C-Betting quiz

maxmaxmaxmax Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
Where can I find a detailed discussion for the answers to questions 7 and 10 on the level II C-Bet quiz? By the way, I've enjoyed CORE very much, and learned a lot. I understand the answers to the quizzes so far except for this one.

This is question 7:
https://redchippoker.com/quizzes/c-betting-quiz/
bke1hwthtapu.png

Equities found using flopzilla:
Hand (hero) 47%
range (villain) 53&
By looking at the "hotness" part of flopzilla it seems clear what helps villain's range (mainly diamonds)
Fold equity is 31%
We don't have back door draws, opponent tendency is to call 69% of the time, We probably only have 1 street of value with weak pair below second pair.
My thinking would be to Check the flop and C-Bet on a turn that has no diamonds.

I mostly care about what a $2-$5, $1-$3 opponent would do. However, I like to run problems by poker snowie to see what it thinks and I ran the following 2 scenarios. I realize that snowie’s ranges are totally different than the one presented.
1. Hero in CO, Villain in Button and Poker snowie, $1/$2, 100 bb stacks. Hero opens to $10, Button calls, Blinds fold Snowie recommends Checking 100% of the time. (It's not close)
2. Hero in UTG, Villain in CO $1-$2, 100BB stacks. Hero opens to $10, CO calls, Button and blinds fold,
In this situation, Snowie bets 92% and checks 8%

My thinking (I could by way off) is that Snowie DOES use range advantage when deciding to make a C-Bet since hero in UTG would have a stronger range advantage vs the range advantage of CO vs button, and would have a higher chance of having an Ace.

Can you please explain your reasoning why you say that this is a clear C-Bet, why my reasoning is wrong, and why Snowie has a mixed C-Bet strategy based on position?


Question 10:
Which of these is NOT an important consideration when c-betting the flop?
The answer is that you should NOT consider who had preflop range advantage, but in the above analysis, poker snowie does seem to consider range advantage. I’m assuming that snowie consideres range advantage because we are oop on both exampes, but the assumed ranges for the positions are different and that is what snowie is considering.

By the way, I recommend having a mini-forum at the end of quizzes just like the lessons so that people can discuss the quizzes more easily.

Comments

  • RunItThriceRunItThrice Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    RCP doesn't focus on things like GTO or optimal play, it focuses on how to beat predictable fish. Having that in mind will explain a lot of discrepancies between their advice and a solver's.
  • maxmaxmaxmax Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    RunItThrice, I fully understand that. However, there must be some reason why snowie made such different decisions based on position (and ranges). Also, I'm hoping an experienced professional can explain why #7 is a C-Bet and why range advantage is not a consideration for cbets. That makes no sense to me.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,364 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd imagine it's because the point of the exercise, as obtuse as it is with a pot sized cbet and odd conditions for villain's continuation, is to recognize how those conditions might favor a cbet. It appears to be an exercise in looking at combinations and measuring equity/FE on one street.

    Snowie, on the other hand, is not bound by these conditions assigned to the villain, and will instead continue fairly optimally. I can't access Snowie at the moment, but I also wonder if you are comparing apples to oranges in terms of bet sizing - although it really doesn't matter because of the first point.

    In other words, the difference is not about range advantage at all, in my estimation.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,695 -
    I think persuadeo nails the issue here. The extremely restrictive qualifiers on the question suggest it's designed (perhaps a little clumsily) to recall a specific point from the associated lesson.

    Honestly this reflects an issue that crops up in some of the lessons/quizzes. Specifically, because CORE is modular I've found some of the questions can be a bit contrived in order to attempt to test that module. The hope is that in doing so the subscriber gets an idea of how well they understand that module. The problem, of course, is that poker isn't modular, and any realistic scenario pulls together multiple concepts.

    To the OP, thanks for the feedback.
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  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 657 ✭✭✭
    maxmax wrote: »
    Question 10:
    Which of these is NOT an important consideration when c-betting the flop?
    The answer is that you should NOT consider who had preflop range advantage, but in the above analysis, poker snowie does seem to consider range advantage.

    Key word is preflop. You're looking at flop range advantage.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,695 -
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    maxmax wrote: »
    Question 10:
    Which of these is NOT an important consideration when c-betting the flop?
    The answer is that you should NOT consider who had preflop range advantage, but in the above analysis, poker snowie does seem to consider range advantage.

    Key word is preflop. You're looking at flop range advantage.

    Another good point.
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  • maxmaxmaxmax Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    TheGameKat, Persuadero, and LeChiffre, great points regarding "preflop" range advantage. That makes sense to me now and looking at preflop range advantage would be silly. Hopefully the question does not mislead others to think that they should ignore range advantage on the current street.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,695 -
    maxmax wrote: »
    TheGameKat, Persuadero, and LeChiffre, great points regarding "preflop" range advantage. That makes sense to me now and looking at preflop range advantage would be silly. Hopefully the question does not mislead others to think that they should ignore range advantage on the current street.

    One of my long-term tasks is going through CORE and improving content where the comments suggest there's a lack of clarity. I'll flag this quiz now. Thanks again for your feedback and helping us provide a better product.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,695 -
    Hmmm does it work if I change:

    Who had preflop range advantage

    to

    Who had preflop range advantage

    Or is that a lazy cop out?

    Oh and @maxmax we've talked about this issue of having an area to discuss CORE quizzes on that part of the site. We concluded one problem was that we didn't want subs seeing such a discussion before they'd taken the quiz, which is not insurmountable obviously. A second point is that by directing such discussions here to the forum, it sort of makes the forum more useful from our side since it's directly supporting a product.
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  • maxmaxmaxmax Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭

    persuadeo wrote: »
    I'd imagine it's because the point of the exercise, as obtuse as it is with a pot sized cbet and odd conditions for villain's continuation, is to recognize how those conditions might favor a cbet. It appears to be an exercise in looking at combinations and measuring equity/FE on one street.

    I'm still trying to understand the reasoning for #7. Is it good to C-Bet because you are getting 31% fold equity and 47% card equity. That would make sense to me. However, that does not use any of the reasoning in the module - We don't have back door draws and opponent tendency is to call 69% of the time.

    Also, ignoring the reason for the question, and just looking at it as an interesting problem does anyone think it would be better to have a delayed c-Bet if no diamonds show up on the turn or is a C-bet on the flop still best?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,695 -
    I suspect the question is trying to bring out the principle of protection, but a pot-sized c-bet as stated doesn't seem like a particularly good idea to me. Note we're in position which incentivizes c-betting somewhat.
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  • maxmaxmaxmax Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    TheGameKat, I think it works if you italicize the word preflop, but now I'm focused on the word :-) I recommend having explanations at the end of the question after someone takes the quiz so someone can learn from their mistake or get reinforced training for getting it correct. For example, don't just say true or false, provide the reason why it's true and not false. To me the score of the quiz does not matter, it's about getting practice solving problems and making sure I understand the material.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,695 -
    maxmax wrote: »
    TheGameKat, I think it works if you italicize the word preflop, but now I'm focused on the word :-) I recommend having explanations at the end of the question after someone takes the quiz so someone can learn from their mistake or get reinforced training for getting it correct. For example, don't just say true or false, provide the reason why it's true and not false. To me the score of the quiz does not matter, it's about getting practice solving problems and making sure I understand the material.

    That's something we've incorporated into our second generation crash courses. In doing so we also concluded back-engineering the CORE quizzes to include comparable detail would be valuable to subscribers. So it's on the list, and the main thing holding it up at this point is how we distribute our resources between creating new content and upgrading old content.
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