Learning NLO8

Chris_VillalobosChris_Villalobos BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
There's a card room close to me that offers NLO8. I guess it's the biggest game in the room and probably pretty soft considering it's in Eastern Oregon. I have very little experience with Omaha in general. The only books I've read on the subject are Ray Zee's 2+2 book and Bob Ciaffone's books back in the late 90's. What would be the best books or sites to learn to play NLO8? I have been listening to Greg Vail's videos on this site which are great!
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  • Chris_VillalobosChris_Villalobos BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    Well I've been trying to avoid it but so many of the bad players love the game that I'm just going dive in. The other night I witnessed a multiple giant pots being taken and lost with hands like 88(J9)! Horrible starting hand for O8. Just seems like I could be printing money before the game burns out.

    Found that PokerStars play money games have many NL08 tables so I can get the feel for it and make the big learning blunders there.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,727 -
    Ha, yeah, if people are playing hands like that you're right - the game may not have a future since all the money will end up with the person who knows what she's doing.
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  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,793 -
    I once saw NL stud.

    Once.

    I wish I had sat because it must also be an abomination that is short lived.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
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  • Chris_VillalobosChris_Villalobos BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    I once saw NL stud.

    Once.

    I wish I had sat because it must also be an abomination that is short lived.

    I wish stud would come back. I could picture an NL version that maybe played with 3 or 4 betting rounds rather than 5 and incorporated a flop for each player's hand on 4th street.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,727 -
    I miss Stud-8.

    I think the most esoteric poker article I ever read was one arguing that, based on the size of draws in Badugi, the optimal betting structure was 1/2-pot-limit.

    I also suspect that in a few years, everyone will recognize the terrible damage done to the frequency of H.O.R.S.E. being spread by the mixed game fiends who advocate all the "Bad" and double-board games.
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  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 29
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Vail's material here will give you some guidance in terms of starting hands, but if you and your opponents actually exploit the NL factor for overbets, it completely changes the game.

    Yes, while his book is pretty good in general, (and I haven't seen his videos if any), his forum posts and book as well are very bad at all-in or near all-in preflop advice. As you said, to be fair, it does change the game, often in very unintuitive ways.
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    One reason I dislike this format so much is that it's simple to develop short-stack strategies that basically make it a purely preflop game, or at most one postflop street.

    The reason I know this is that it can happen in PL games as well, specifically when some people are shortstacked, or when there is a huge straddle, or even a large straddle relative to the medium stacks, or when people just get very gambley.
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    One strategy I learned from Scott Clements is the following. Buy in short. Know your hot/cold equities. You can give the appearance of being a maniac by constant preflop overbet jams that you have determined off the table are profitable. Once you've built a stack over 100bb, completely switch gears and now play like you would if it were pot limit. You'll get loads of action despite now only getting it in when you're freerolling or dominating your opponents.

    I think that is very good advice. I would make a slight addition: "When you are effectively short, know your hot/cold equities". Hands like T987 can become profitable believe it or not.

    e.g. against AA46, A278, A235, T987 is by far the best hand and it's not even close. Add some bigger cards to the other hands and it gets close.

    The same is true for @Chris_Villalobos (normally) "terrible" hand J988.

  • Chris_VillalobosChris_Villalobos BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    I think that is very good advice. I would make a slight addition: "When you are effectively short, know your hot/cold equities". Hands like T987 can become profitable believe it or not.

    e.g. against AA46, A278, A235, T987 is by far the best hand and it's not even close. Add some bigger cards to the other hands and it gets close.

    The same is true for @Chris_Villalobos (normally) "terrible" hand J988.

    I don't know about T987. That is a specific scenario where our opponents just happen to counterfeit each other. I took T987 up against a bunch of 20% ranges and it didn't do so well.

    I actually didn't know this until I started playing with T987. It's so bad hot/cold that I would proposition bet any random O8 hand vs [T9][87]! :^)
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,727 -
    Those medium rundowns are in general dreadful, but in very short-stacked situations in which the pot is offering a massive overlay, they can be profitable, particularly when the presence of multiple players in the pot indicates that a lot of the low stuff is out of the stub.

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  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't know about T987. That is a specific scenario where our opponents just happen to counterfeit each other.

    They don't "just happen" to counterfeit each other. We're not talking about standard "good" Omaha/8 hands in standard situations. Aces are so important in Omaha/8 that some players will rarely play a hand without one, and certainly never raise or call a raise without one. Hand reading, in a sense, becomes easier in Omaha/8.
    It's so bad hot/cold that I would proposition bet any random O8 hand vs [T9][87]! :^)

    "So bad"? It does not do great heads up against a completely random hand, so that's not where to play it. It's about 45%, but then again, that's what people call a "coinflip" or "classic race" when AK gets all in against 88, and no one seems to complain about that one.

    And just so you know, it's also 45% against A234, so these things are not always what they seem. So just for example, if there is an overlay in the pot because of some hands that folded, and your opponent shows you A234, then you should be all in with him.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Those medium rundowns are in general dreadful

    They "play bad" when there is poker left to be played. The primary reason is that you're playing for half the pot at best, usually. If no low is possible, then you're on the ass end of the straight, and if you hit the top end of the straight, a low is possible. So there's a lot of downside, and not much upside, when there's a good amount of money to be played later in the hand.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,727 -
    jeffnc wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Those medium rundowns are in general dreadful

    They "play bad" when there is poker left to be played. The primary reason is that you're playing for half the pot at best, usually. If no low is possible, then you're on the ass end of the straight, and if you hit the top end of the straight, a low is possible. So there's a lot of downside, and not much upside, when there's a good amount of money to be played later in the hand.

    Quite so.
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  • Chris_VillalobosChris_Villalobos BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    Alright, I think I'm starting to get this whole short stacking idea. Since Omaha starting hands are so close together in value we can put ourselves in a profitable position multiple times an hour short stacked. In hold'em we have to at least have something like the top 10% of hands to make plays like this.

    In the crazy 1/2 game I played in there were many times where someone straddled for $10 and multiple players called. Given the right circumstances we could probably get a $30 short stack all-in against 3+ opponents preflop. Most likely some opponents will fold by the end of the hand so there will be a significant amount of dead money in the pot for odds. Using this strategy we could shove any random hand and expect to have a positive outcome, and do even better if we get rid of the totally hopeless hands like 2222, [84]88
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well with dead money, all things are possible.

    Speaking of 2222, next time you're at the Omaha table, see if you can get a prop bet going while dealing 2222 against 4 random cards in a runout off to the side. You can probably get 15 or 20:1, maybe even more. Make sure you make them think about what the best hand 2222 can possibly make is first (which they will assume is a pair, not that it matters much that they're wrong.) But that will help them give you better odds. Then just play that bet all night with them.

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