Being check-raised with an OESD on the turn

EurocratEurocrat Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
Hi everyone,

I'm currently trying to work on better understanding board textures and range advantages/disadvantages. Here's a spot that I played on Pokerstars NL16 and that I kept thinking about. I would appreciate somebody's insight on it:

Table Information
Seat: 1 Hero ($16.77) Dealer
Seat: 2 Player 2 ($27.38) Small Blind
Seat: 3 Player 3 ($16.83) Big Blind
Seat: 4 Player 4 ($16)
Seat: 5 Player 5 ($29.28)
Seat: 6 Player 6 ($5.89)
Dealt to Hero
QS.png KC.png

Preflop (Pot:0.24)
Player 4 FOLD
Player 5 FOLD
Player 6 FOLD
Hero RAISE $0.32
Player 2 FOLD
Player 3 CALL $0.16

Flop(Pot: $0.72)
6H.png JS.png TH.png

Player 3 CHECK
Hero BET $0.46
Player 3 CALL $0.46

Turn(Pot: $1.64)
6H.png JS.png TH.png TC.png

Player 3 CHECK
Hero BET $1.05
Player 3 RAISE $3.52
Hero FOLD
Player 3 RETURN $2.47
Showdown:
Player 3 MUCKS

Player 3 wins the pot: $6.21

Villain is one of the stronger regs on these stakes with a 20/17 style. He is quite aggresive with an aggression factor of 4.7 (n=289, so that will likely be an outlier).

I think the hand goes down very standard preflop and flop. Now, the turn is where I get stuck a bit. I do have a decent draw with an OESD and two overcards. Obviously the board is not super pretty now and I don't really have a single clean out after I am being check-raised, so I decide to fold. The way I see it, most of his draws would have check-raised already on the flop the majority of the time and now looking back, the second T is a great card for his range because his range will consist of lots of Tx hands. So, my question really is, should I have taken the free rive card?

Looking forward to some feedback!
Tagged:

Comments

  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 507 ✭✭✭
    I'm not sure that the T is actually a better card for your opponent. Your open range on the button likely has more Tx in it than his BB defending range when he just flats. If he's very aggressive, I would expect a lot of his Tx broadways to get 3 bet pre vs a steal range. I think also HU BB v BTN, we would likely bet our vulnerable Tx on this flop so I'm not convinced the T is truly better card for V but interested to hear how others approach this.

    However, I probably would check the turn when the board pairs. Even if we make our straight, we are not super excited about getting all the money in, so I would probably shift into pot control mode after our flop bet is called.

    As played, I would fold, too. We do not have the odds to call and even though there is some money behind left to win, I think we run into a wall of RIO often enough to make folding the right play.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Except he shouldn't be betting a ten at that size, and the ten is a value target/bluff target for the hands that do bet flop like this. So the turn bet is the error here, especially considering depth. There is no room to call or repolarize.
  • EurocratEurocrat Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    Thanks for the feedback so far! @persuadeo: Just so I'm sure I understand well, you mean that I shouldn't bet my Tx hands on the flop, right?

    @Jordan Power: You raise some points which intrigue me. I usually don't 3bet hands like AT, KT, QT from the BB vs BU, because especially vs a 2BB raise I can comfortably call, so I would rather elect hands that are close to being -EV calls as 3bet bluffs, hands like K7s-K2s, 66-22, small suited connectors and onegappers. That's why I didn't really exclude many Tx combos. Maybe my strategy is off here a bit, so would love to hear what others think.

    I do see some merit for betting some vulnerable Tx combos as the BU now, so that's something I'll have another look at. Then again, if I understand persuadeo correctly, he suggests not to bet these.

    If we say betting KQ on the turn he provides for an awkward situation - what would we do with hands like AQ? I'm thinking this would make for a better bet as it doesn't hit as many decent river cards that would allow us to go to showdown when we check behind on the turn, and we have an easier fold when being check-raised on the turn after the bet. Maybe that line of thinking is a bit off, so looking forward to hear some input on that.

    Best

  • obliviusoblivius San FranciscoRed Chipper Posts: 108 ✭✭
    I think (maybe) that @persuadeo is saying that you'd rather bet much smaller ott with you value/bluff combos. The large turn bet opens you up to exactly what happened. If you bet smaller there's more stack depth to 3b your value/bluff hands or flat hoping to improve should you get raised as happened. Good question about the AQ type hands. I think the play on the paired board is to check hoping for cheap showdown. Not 100% sure about my inference.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5
    Let me clarify. OP is betting at the large size on the flop (more than 50%), which means he should be betting fewer tens overall. This means he does not arrive with many tens on the turn (A10 and K10 stand out as bets on the flop) and should reduce his betting frequency; part of this is recognizing that KQ in particular retains too much equity to burn up as a bet/fold, so I am arguing that the turn should be a check.

    I am not arguing for a smaller turn bet, as that makes little sense - small turn bets IP are not a great idea for reasons you can deduce.
  • Cracked_Jacks11Cracked_Jacks11 Red Chipper Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Just a general question from someone who has never played online - is the 2bb open on the BTN normal/standard? It seems to me that you will get called by the BB at a very high frequency with this min-raise. Perhaps that's the idea, since you can then play a lot of hands in position.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    On reflection, KQ might be great as a bet fold depending on how wide BB is calling flop. (there's always a caveat, isn't there?) If he arrives on the turn with lots of 6x and underpairs, getting the fold now is valuable enough, even if it means surrendering equity.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,633 -
    Just a general question from someone who has never played online - is the 2bb open on the BTN normal/standard? It seems to me that you will get called by the BB at a very high frequency with this min-raise. Perhaps that's the idea, since you can then play a lot of hands in position.

    It was fashionable a couple of years ago. I thought it'd died out but apparently not.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The incentive on the button is to raise larger but since price = range, players choose to widen their range instead and now have to depress the price, under the idea (often the delusion, sometimes correctly) that they will force the blinds to vpip and be outplayed.
  • obliviusoblivius San FranciscoRed Chipper Posts: 108 ✭✭
    Love that 2x topic... not this thread tho. Thanks Persuadeo... will you clarity too what you mean by call/repolarize? I believe this is the stack depth maneuvering to which you are referring. Bet flop value hands small to leave room. Thanks for your time
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    what i mean is, on the turn, bet/3b. A xr is presenting polar, so a b/3b is to repolarize. I guess it is confusing to use these terms in public, but understanding them will help solidify why what is doing what.

    So to return to the turn play, by betting, he denies himself equity, because he can't call, and there is no room to 3b. Still, betting turn has some value, as i mentioned in a later post. Sorry for the confusion.
  • EurocratEurocrat Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    Wow, it's nice to see my thread getting so much feedback. I have to admit that some points are being raised concerning parts of the strategy that I consider to be pretty weak in. One thing I was trying to understand better is the stack size and why its too small to attempt a 3B bluff on the turn. I have another 15-ish $ behind on a pot that is 6$ after the C/R. If my rough math is correct, my 3B bluff would be about 1 1/2 pot. Is that too bad? Maybe more importantly, what would be targeting exactly? Would it be reasonable to assume that the weaker Tx combos fold here? Admittedly, I never felt the necessity in my stakes to think about 3Bet bluffs on the turn...

    Concerning the 2x open, I followed the strategy in the Grinders Manual in that I use a 2x size when there are decent regs in the blinds (but stick to 3x when there is a fish to increase the pot). I like this sizing because I think most players in these stakes do call widely, but not as widely as they should be...
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i'm sorry, the stacks are deep enough, i was using the wrong villain from the hh.

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