small SPR in multi-way

osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
Does Red Chip Poker have any videos on small SPR in multi-way pots? I am talking about spots where the SPR is small because so many people are in the pot. An example would be in a game that has a $100 buy-in and 5 people take the flop for $15.

Thanks

Answers

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,633 -
    Quite a good discussion here:

    https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/479/spr-multiway

    and here

    https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/comment/26017

    The basic trade-off is that, as you say, multiway pots frequently have low SPR simply because of the large number of people contesting the pot, but that also means that the winning hand will typically be strong. If you get to a 5-way flop with an SPR of 2, blindly stacking off with top pair might not be a great idea.

    This podcast is also good https://redchippoker.com/spr-stack-to-pot-ratio-podcast/

    Our PRO library also has some videos on low SPR pots and it's featured in CORE.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    Thanks. I read all that and I listened to the podcast. I have to say given how often 4 to 6 people take the flop (at least in my game) making an SPR of less than 2 it seems this topic is not covered very well.
    More questions to follow ;-)
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,633 -
    There is a limit to how much free content there is on any topic, as well as limits to its quality. A deeper issue is that if hands are going massively multiway, you know you're facing weak players, but its still way simpler to isolate one of those players and play them HUIP. You simply have less control in massively multiway pots and become just one of the pack relying on hand strength. It's far more desirable to manufacture situations where the outcome is more reliant on skill.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    I am a Red Chip Poker Pro member. I'm not looking for free. Is there a better place I should be paying?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,633 -
    osgobo wrote: »
    I am a Red Chip Poker Pro member. I'm not looking for free. Is there a better place I should be paying?

    The last time I checked the competition we were still better than everyone else. Have you watched the pertinent videos in the PRO library or would you like me to dig some out for you?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    osgobo wrote: »
    I am a Red Chip Poker Pro member. I'm not looking for free. Is there a better place I should be paying?

    The last time I checked the competition we were still better than everyone else. Have you watched the pertinent videos in the PRO library or would you like me to dig some out for you?

    I don't know which videos are pertinent. I do know this. There is one poker room where I live and the next poker room is an 8 hour round trip away. So, come what may I need a strategy for beating the game in front of me. And that game has lots of 4 or 5 way pots that leave the effective stacks with an SPR of less than 2. So I need a good strategy for dealing with that. :-)

    I read this quote in one of the things you sent me earlier.
    "Develop a plan on playing low SPR multiway pots and you will crush live poker."

    Do you believe that?
    Because it seems like, if that's true, it is a plan I need to develop but I have no idea how to develop said plan.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,633 -
    osgobo wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    osgobo wrote: »
    I am a Red Chip Poker Pro member. I'm not looking for free. Is there a better place I should be paying?

    The last time I checked the competition we were still better than everyone else. Have you watched the pertinent videos in the PRO library or would you like me to dig some out for you?

    I don't know which videos are pertinent. I do know this. There is one poker room where I live and the next poker room is an 8 hour round trip away. So, come what may I need a strategy for beating the game in front of me. And that game has lots of 4 or 5 way pots that leave the effective stacks with an SPR of less than 2. So I need a good strategy for dealing with that. :-)

    I read this quote in one of the things you sent me earlier.
    "Develop a plan on playing low SPR multiway pots and you will crush live poker."

    Do you believe that?
    Because it seems like, if that's true, it is a plan I need to develop but I have no idea how to develop said plan.

    Very good, I have some production stuff to deal with but will try to post something here later today on a PRO video list.

    The quote I've emboldened above, however, allows me to give you what I feel is very strong advice on this topic. Do I agree with that quote? Yes and no. It's true that entry-level cash games feature low SPR, multiway pots, so if you have a plan for such situations that clearly cannot be a bad thing.

    However, there is a better way. When I played live cash I was in the top 10% skillwise in my player pool. Honestly, that's not saying much. While I try to avoid players who are better than me, I noticed something after a while from the strongest players that had a profound influence on my game.

    Even at live $1/$2 where most pots are low SPR, multiway affairs, the best players are very rarely contesting multiway pots!

    Understand that when you find yourself in such pots, this is something you've done. It's true there will be occasions that you make a perfectly sensible open-raise and get five callers, most of whom have position on you, and that pretty much sucks. But was that an inevitable outcome? Would you have created a more profitable situation if you'd opened larger? Think about these issues, because as mentioned above, the physics of poker dictates that once you find yourself on the flop in a low SPR, multiway scenario, there are limits on how much your cunning plan will actually make you. Yes, you can play these spots better than the competition, but your bb/hr in these cases is simply not going to be very high. Everyone gets to make a hand and your probable card advantage only takes you so far.

    In any other situation, finding yourself in a low SPR, multiway pot was completely your fault. You called a raise or overlimped. I'd suggest that while that action may occasionally be objectively best, you will lose nothing by never calling. 3-bet, iso-raise or fold. If you size correctly you'll find yourself in these luckfest situations far less frequently and will have manipulated the game so that you're playing it on your terms.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A simple plan:

    1) you will be extremely sensitive to position, meaning your EP-MP range will be heartbreakingly tight
    2) you will not create SPR one pots, because you will open to a rational size, not 7.5x. This will also encourage jams for you to call off with the top, while saving on your opens which you will have fold somewhat frequently.
    3) you will not create SPR one pots passively because your calling range will be nearly nil, and instead will be jamming over most opens with trailing calls
    4) when you are called, you will have nearly no betting range in MW SPR 1 pots because all the hands you have either missed or retain their equity vs action, so you will be XR or calling off all hands you intend to felt
    5) on your rare IP MW pots you will jam all high equity hands and fold all misses
    6) your vpips because of this will go down, not up this will fight 1) rake and 2) MW potshare
  • osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    A simple plan:

    1) you will be extremely sensitive to position, meaning your EP-MP range will be heartbreakingly tight
    2) you will not create SPR one pots, because you will open to a rational size, not 7.5x. This will also encourage jams for you to call off with the top, while saving on your opens which you will have fold somewhat frequently.
    3) you will not create SPR one pots passively because your calling range will be nearly nil, and instead will be jamming over most opens with trailing calls
    4) when you are called, you will have nearly no betting range in MW SPR 1 pots because all the hands you have either missed or retain their equity vs action, so you will be XR or calling off all hands you intend to felt
    5) on your rare IP MW pots you will jam all high equity hands and fold all misses
    6) your vpips because of this will go down, not up this will fight 1) rake and 2) MW potshare

    Please define "heartbreakingly tight".
    Thanks
  • osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    edited November 9
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    However, there is a better way. When I played live cash I was in the top 10% skillwise in my player pool. Honestly, that's not saying much. While I try to avoid players who are better than me, I noticed something after a while from the strongest players that had a profound influence on my game.

    Even at live $1/$2 where most pots are low SPR, multiway affairs, the best players are very rarely contesting multiway pots!

    Understand that when you find yourself in such pots, this is something you've done. It's true there will be occasions that you make a perfectly sensible open-raise and get five callers, most of whom have position on you, and that pretty much sucks. But was that an inevitable outcome? Would you have created a more profitable situation if you'd opened larger? Think about these issues, because as mentioned above, the physics of poker dictates that once you find yourself on the flop in a low SPR, multiway scenario, there are limits on how much your cunning plan will actually make you. Yes, you can play these spots better than the competition, but your bb/hr in these cases is simply not going to be very high. Everyone gets to make a hand and your probable card advantage only takes you so far.

    In any other situation, finding yourself in a low SPR, multiway pot was completely your fault. You called a raise or overlimped. I'd suggest that while that action may occasionally be objectively best, you will lose nothing by never calling. 3-bet, iso-raise or fold. If you size correctly you'll find yourself in these luckfest situations far less frequently and will have manipulated the game so that you're playing it on your terms.

    Ok. so I can get behind what you are saying, 'avoid small SPR multi-way pots'.
    A good example would be in my (unanswered) question in the thread "small SPR in multi-way 2". If there are already 4 people in the pot for $15 each and you have $100 in your stack go all-in or fold. OK, but what hands should you go all-in with?
    And what should you do UTG? If you have a hand you want to raise and you make it $15 or less you will get 4 or 5 callers putting you in the small SPR spot.
    But if you make it $20 or more people say "20 BUCKS!! you MUST have a monster!!" and then they fold out all their junk and only call with their good hands.
    Plus , if you avoid multi-way pots in these games you are avoiding a lot because multi-way pots are how the true sicko gamblers get the rush they are looking for.

    And even if I do my best to avoid multi-way pots I will still need a plan for when I can't avoid them.

    Thanks
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,633 -
    Persuadeo gave you an excellent plan which is consistent with my advice, modulo adjustments for how players respond to large opens. To your other questions and observations:

    As already noted, in the scenario where someone has opened to $15, there have been multiple callers, and you are on the button, use a tool like HoldemResources Calculator to develop a shoving range. Nobody can do this for you unless they happen to be playing in this exact game. More to the point, the process of doing this is how you get better at poker.

    Similarly, how tight your EP opening range should be depends on the precise ranges you're facing and your sizing. From the info you've provided my guess is it could be as low as 5%, but you're best placed to determine that.

    Finally, you note that it's the multiway pots where players are gambling it up and that should therefore be the most profitable. I'd suggest this simply isn't the case if you're contesting them by seeing multiway flops with a low SPR. If people are getting involved with weak ranges, force them all-in pre when your card advantage guarantees long-term profit. Miller has a good discussion on this in "Playing The Player."

    I'll have your PRO video recommendations in a couple of hours.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,633 -
    Alrighty @osgobo here's your PRO video study plan.

    For a general overview of small SPR pots:

    Sweeney. Small SPR Pots.

    For information on multiway pots:

    Sweeney: Live Multiway Pots

    Miller. The Course 05: Multiway Pots

    Brokos. MW Pots I: Analyzing Flop Textures.

    Brokos. MW Pots II: Examples

    Brokos. MW Pots III: Analyzing Flop Actions

    Brokos. MW Pots IV: Analyzing Turns

    Brokos. MW Pots V: Analyzing Rivers

    I imagine you may object to the usefulness of these in the horrible game you're stuck in on the grounds many of the examples are at a far greater stack depth. As I've already explained, this is mostly because strong players don't put themselves in multiway pots with SPR ~ 1 very often. The combination of large opens and shallow stacks creates situations far more akin to tournament poker, so you may find useful information in our tournament videos. Of note, I recommend our 3-Bet Shove crash course by Hayles to which you have free access:

    https://redchippoker.com/crash-course/mtt-3bet-shoves/

    This will help you avoid such undesirable situations in the first place and teach you how to use HRC to construct shoving ranges.

    Please feel free to bring any questions you have about this material back here.

    ~ Kat
    Moderation In Moderation
  • osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    osgobo wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    A simple plan:


    4) when you are called, you will have nearly no betting range in MW SPR 1 pots because all the hands you have either missed or retain their equity vs action, so you will be XR or calling off all hands you intend to felt


    Please explain #4 I don't understand it.
    Thanks
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
    osgobo wrote: »
    Please define "heartbreakingly tight".

    Take your normal game, then fold until you start feeling really frustrated that shitty players are winning all the pots you're not in.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭✭✭
    osgobo wrote: »
    And what should you do UTG? If you have a hand you want to raise and you make it $15 or less you will get 4 or 5 callers putting you in the small SPR spot.

    Well if you have premium cards then limp and when someone raises, shove. That might or might not limit the number of players, but remember you're now playing Bingo. A hand such as AK retains its equity quite well against, say, 3 other opponents playing top 20% of hands. Your equity is going to be something like 33%, but you only put in 25% of the money. So you have to be willing to play that game all night long. You are in about the same boat with a hand like JJ.

    That's the simplistic approach, see persuadeo's for actually playing a little poker. But UTG is not a good place to be in a game like this.

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10
    Please explain #4 I don't understand it.
    Thanks


    I'll restate, if that helps: When you open in these scenarios from EP and do pick up 7 callers or whatever number gets you to around SPR 1, you will never cbet. The reason is that your now very tight range will either not be able to put in money versus the combined equity of the field, and so your cbets are pointless; or you want to incentivize the field to put in money as light as possible, as you will be stacking off with all your remaining high EV hands.

    That said, you won't reach SPR 1 even in your game very often if you open to an appropriate size. Let's say you open to 8 and now have 92 behind. Basically the whole field would have to call to force this scenario, and that can only happen from UTG.

    Further, should you have a cbetting range in certain scenarios, such as you only pick up 2-3 opponents or for reasons to complex too talk about here, it should always be priced to allow an SPR of 1 on the next street, so you can shove there.
  • osgoboosgobo Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Please explain #4 I don't understand it.
    Thanks


    I'll restate, if that helps: When you open in these scenarios from EP and do pick up 7 callers or whatever number gets you to around SPR 1, you will never cbet. The reason is that your now very tight range will either not be able to put in money versus the combined equity of the field, and so your cbets are pointless; or you want to incentivize the field to put in money as light as possible, as you will be stacking off with all your remaining high EV hands.

    That said, you won't reach SPR 1 even in your game very often if you open to an appropriate size. Let's say you open to 8 and now have 92 behind. Basically the whole field would have to call to force this scenario, and that can only happen from UTG.

    Further, should you have a cbetting range in certain scenarios, such as you only pick up 2-3 opponents or for reasons to complex too talk about here, it should always be priced to allow an SPR of 1 on the next street, so you can shove there.

    Thank you! That was very helpful.

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