77 tough spot

ulysses27ulysses27 Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
This hand happened the other day. I was playing 1/3. Most hands were 3 way but the weren't too many multi-way pots.

The only important players are because of their position are directly to my right.

V1 is directly to my right. He's been a bit on tilt and folds with enough pressure.

V2 is pretty aggro and is very good at applying pressure. He's the deepest stack at the table.

I'm in the BB with about $600. The effective stack is about $85.

I have :7s:7c

I don't remember the action exactly but there were a couple of limps and then a raise to $15. There were 3 callers and then it came to me. I thought about 3 betting but I was a little worried about V2 since I saw him limp KK earlier and I didn't want a huge pot with my holdings oop. I called and V1 and 2 both called. So 6 ways to the flop. Which was:

:4s:5d:6s

I couldn't decide if I wanted to check or bet. I have an open ended straight draw and I block 78 but I'm leading into 5 people. Plus it's a dynamic wet board. I decided to check call but it checks all around. The turn is

:6s

Now there seems so much that beats me or potentially does that I think check calling makes sense but it checks around again. I'm very perplexed. It's hard to put 5 people on ranges. The river is

:2s

I figure this is a check fold or call depending on best size. So I check. V2 bets $120 and everyone folds. He showed what he had but I'll save that after I get your feedback.

Comments

  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 513 ✭✭✭
    Can you clarify what position you are in and what position the PFR is in?

    Also, typo on the :6S: coming out twice. Could you clarify on that?
  • ulysses27ulysses27 Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    Sorry it should be :6h on the turn and I believe the pfr was utg 3 and v1 and 2 limped. I was in the BB.
  • pmineiropmineiro Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    [preflop] I don't remember the action exactly but there were a couple of limps and then a raise to $15. There were 3 callers and then it came to me. I thought about 3 betting but I was a little worried about V2 since I saw him limp KK earlier and I didn't want a huge pot with my holdings oop.
    My 2c: players limp-backraise in order to discourage you from squeezing. Don't let them do this to you. Go ahead and squeeze/fold, V2 can only have the nuts a small amount of the time (meaning if he keeps limp-backraising you then he's full of it and you can just play back). Objective with 77 should be to get it heads up so that you don't need a set to win, *especially* if the original raiser doesn't defend against postflop aggression properly.
    [flop] I couldn't decide if I wanted to check or bet. I have an open ended straight draw and I block 78 but I'm leading into 5 people. Plus it's a dynamic wet board. I decided to check call but it checks all around.
    If I get here like this (which I don't) I'm looking to thin the field by betting. I likely have the best hand but it is vulnerable 1) to overcards (that I will try and fold out) and 2) to draws (that I do not want to give free equity realization). Since you called in the big blind it is 100% plausible that you smashed this board (which, in fact, you did).
    [turn is 6h] Now there seems so much that beats me or potentially does that I think check calling makes sense but it checks around again.
    If I get here like this (which I don't) I'm again looking to thin the field by betting. You still have top pair with an open ended straight draw and the flop checked through. It seems unlikely given the action that anybody has a monster, since this is the classic "need to protect against draws" scenario that causes players to bet their overpairs and sets. High cards are even more likely to fold now, and you'll continue to extract value from draws.
    [river is 2s] I figure this is a check fold or call depending on best size. So I check. V2 bets $120 and everyone folds. He showed what he had but I'll save that after I get your feedback.
    Ugh. Given the action, everybody's range is intact except for removal of hands that would bet. That means showdown value hands and draws (that come in on the river). If V2 is betting $120 into $100 and into everybody besides you, I'm folding, and if he's bluffing good for him. because his line makes sense. But I'm not feeling too bad about this river because I don't get here this way.



  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 513 ✭✭✭
    Hey @pmineiro - welcome to the forum, noticed that was your first post.

    I do not think 3 betting 77 out of the BB is the best play preflop. We have a V who chose to raise over a few limpers and multiple callers before us. Thinking about what hands he would do this with and what he could continue on for our 3 bet makes me doubt we are ever 3 betting for value.

    From my perspective in the BB, we are getting an astounding price to set mine with a ton of money in play should we hit. So I'm not gonna 3 bet here. I think we make a ton more money when we make our set MW than by 3 betting with a hand that is strong enough to call facing a multitude of other players, some of which are short and might just rip it anyway.

    I do think leading the flop has merit. We have a vulnerable made hand that would benefit both from protection and from building a pot. Additionally, our hand can also stand pressure from a raise given our OESD. So I think a bet is viable. However, my first thought here was with the PFR in relatively EP, we might see a bet from someone in later position who might go ahead and built our pot for us which could also entice more people to call. But perhaps that's overthinking it.

    On the turn once it checks around, I think we should indeed be betting.

    On the river, I agree, would just fold unless I had some info on V.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 235 ✭✭
    edited November 26
    How would you calculate the more profitable play?

    Calling to set-mine in a 1-2 spr pot
    vs
    3betting to iso the short stack, assuming we get eff. stack all in and headsup preflop 80%, and creating a side pot 20% still with io to hit a set in all instances
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26
    You really haven't described this hand very well, and in my experience, when hands aren't explained well in detail, then the thought process in the hand in real time didn't happen in very much detail either. This is the first thing I'd focus on. It takes too much effort to figure out the pieces missing and the mistakes in your hand description. You might want to read the sticky on posting your hand descriptions. Not only will this help your own thought process but it will get you better answers as well.

    Most hands 3 way, but not many multi-way pots?? I find it hard to believe that you have a $600 stack and the other 6 (!) players in the hand all have $85.
  • TiagoAlexTiagoAlex Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited November 26
    Hello tough play;)

    1. I agree with BB call 77 in mw pot with many limpers offers you many implieds odds

    2. On the flop I think the best option would be to bet to get value from draws and overcads and you have some folding equity (oc) from hands that could de better on the turn and If someone has a better hand than yours you have oesd as insurance. You also get some information about the villain's hands strength. When you check and everyone also checks we know that they only have draws and you give them a free card.

    If you didn't have oesd the check option could be viable as the bord is very dangerous and there are many opponents

    3. On the turn once you checked the flop and everyone checked you should have bet to protect your hand from draws and oc.

    4. At river check / fold, the obvious draw came in mw pot. There are no worse hands to call.


  • ulysses27ulysses27 Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    [/quote] Most hands 3 way, but not many multi-way pots?? I find it hard to believe that you have a $600 stack and the other 6 (!) players in the hand all have $85.[/quote]

    Sorry about the writing in this one. I was at work and didn't proofread. My understanding is that effective stack is the smallest stack in the hand which you use to determine spr. I might be wrong in that. 1 person had $85 and another $150 neither were the pfr.

    Thanks everyone for the input it was very helpful. V2 showed AQ offsuit.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ulysses27 wrote: »
    My understanding is that effective stack is the smallest stack in the hand which you use to determine spr. I might be wrong in that. 1 person had $85 and another $150 neither were the pfr.

    Trying to figure effective stacks in multiway pots can get complicated. You had $85 eff. stacks with 1 person, and $150 with another. And other eff. stacks with other people. And likewise, they had different eff. stacks with each other. It is best to just give the stack sizes of the people involved in the hand and let the reader figure it out.

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    blindraise wrote: »
    How would you calculate the more profitable play?

    Calling to set-mine in a 1-2 spr pot
    vs
    3betting to iso the short stack, assuming we get eff. stack all in and headsup preflop 80%, and creating a side pot 20% still with io to hit a set in all instances
    Good question. You would calculate it with a very long EV equation that accounts for everyone's action that would take up all of this page and more. So let's look at how the game works instead.

    in general "dead money" - meaning passive money from ranges that can't protect themselves because they skew one way or another, generally weak - incentivizes laying a new price, not taking the one offered.

    We can see this rather easily. In a six way pot, stack off thresholds are going to be high, therefore you don't capture much of the dead money by calling, but instead only get into a fight with other equity that can also felt.

    While 77 is definitely strong enough to include in a flatting range, it is almost impossible to navigate 6 ways on a wide variety of boards. Here, even on a great one, some how things still go wrong.

    This is, by the way, why a soft game looks like this hand, and in a strong game, preflop reraises attempt buy up the equity shares of their opponents immediately.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well said @persuadeo

    I also think a lot of players need to find ways to make their game look more gambley to the typical opponent, without being passive, and situations like this are good ones to aggress.
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 235 ✭✭
    @persuadeo

    Thanks for the response. If one were interested in delving into complex EV equations, are there resources available?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    probably @TheGameKat can point out the RCP and related resources for you, and you can search the forum for threads where a lot of math went into a decision.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,727 -
    I don't think there's anything off the shelf that can deal with a massively multiway situation like this. If you want to probe it, the only way I can see is looking at a few branches of the outcome tree and simply calculating the W$/L$ by hand.
    Moderation In Moderation

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