Implied Odds and Deep Stacks

Mr_Big_StackMr_Big_Stack Over The RoadRed Chipper Posts: 34 ✭✭
I had a hand last night that got me to thinking about IO and stack sizes.
H HJ 220bb
V1 SB 180bb
V2 BB 240bb

Folds to Hero with JJ, raise to 3.5bb. V1 calls, V2 3! to 14bb.
The notes I have on my opponents gave me high confidence that stacks were in play. So I didn't look at my hand as JJ vs my opponents' range but rather as a PP with IO of close to 25:1 (or at least that's the math I could do as the timer was turning red!) allowing me to set mine. I called.

So my first question is did I approach this correctly? Also I know that play at 200bb deep is different than play at 75bb. But I haven't started a deep dive into the differences of the fundamentals as the stacks get deeper. Here are some thoughts, your feedback is appreciated.

1. IO is a two-edged sword. The higher our skill level (especially at hand reading) the less we offer our opponents, the lower it is the more we offer.

2. This leads to: deep stacked, the further a hand goes, the stronger the hand has to be for a lesser skilled player like me. Yes there's been times that I've called down or bet in to a player 3 streets with just TPTK. But that has been after watching them get to showdown dozens of times with TP whatever kicker or worse.

3. If the IO for set mining is (depending on the source, I've read as low as 15:1 or as high as 25:1), then what IO are needed for playing SC?


  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,863 -
    I think there's a critical distinction between pocket pairs and suited connectors that is central to your questions. With a pocket pair (particularly small-medium), we either flop a set or we don't. Typically this means we don't need to be a poker genius to make money. Suited connectors are trickier because what we typically flop is a draw. OOP this creates a situation where being a poker genius is a definite asset.

    As to stack depth, 25:1 is what is frequently quoted for SCs, but if you're OOP and not very good at poker there may not be a ratio that puts you in profit.
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  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    In addition to what GameKat said, another difference is that you can sometimes play your pocket pairs to showdown since you'll often be ahead, while you essentially never will be with SCs. To be able to play SCs against decent players heads up, I don't think you can be profitable unless you're good at bluffing or even calling down sometimes when your 87s hits a 7.

    In your example, it's not at all clear to me that your opponent doesn't have a AK, TT type of hand. It's the value of being ahead from the start in addition to set mining that can give you an edge. That counts the possibility of hitting your set on the turn or river, which you will never be around to see if you just setmine to the flop. If you see the river, your odds go from 8:1 up to about 4:1.

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