Value or bluff

jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited December 2019 in General Concepts
On a board of :4H::5H::KS: , you hold :AC::AD: . Your opponent shows you his hand of :6H::7H: , but he does not know your hand. Assume you don't know anything about your opponent, but you think there is a chance he will fold. You decide to shove all-in. Do you consider this a bluff or a value bet?

Value or bluff

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Comments

  • ROI RUINERROI RUINER Red Chipper Posts: 228 ✭✭
    You have the best hand at that moment but I believe on the flop your opponent has more equity. You are charging him to realize his equity so I believe that makes it a value bet.
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 790 ✭✭✭
    Do you want a call or a fold ?
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 657 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    You don't have >50% equity when called, so in my mind it can't be called a value bet. Your intention with a shove would be to fold him out. Since he has more equity than you, it would be a bluff. But since you have a lot of equity when called I'd call it a semi-bluff to be exact. If he had less equity than you I'd call it a shove for protection fwiw.

    Of course the real answer is that it doesn't matter what we call it.
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 790 ✭✭✭
    ROI RUINER wrote: »
    You have the best hand at that moment but I believe on the flop your opponent has more equity. You are charging him to realize his equity so I believe that makes it a value bet.

    By this logic, every bet would be considered a value bet. However, you are not really charging your opponent - you are actually giving him the opportunity to put more money into the pot with an equity advantage.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some should (re)read Janda "No-Limit Hold 'em For Advanced Players". The answer will then be crystal clear.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Mule wrote: »
    ROI RUINER wrote: »
    You are charging him to realize his equity so I believe that makes it a value bet.

    By this logic, every bet would be considered a value bet.

    This brings up an interesting situation. Let's say you have AA and your opponent has KK and the board is AAKK2. He has 0 equity, so it can't be a value bet? You can't be charging him to realize his equity.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Mule wrote: »
    Do you want a call or a fold ?

    According to Janda this can't be the deciding factor, because sometimes you have the best hand with more equity and still prefer a fold. To be fair, this depends on money in the pot, which I didn't specify.
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 790 ✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    The Mule wrote: »
    Do you want a call or a fold ?

    According to Janda this can't be the deciding factor, because sometimes you have the best hand with more equity and still prefer a fold. To be fair, this depends on money in the pot, which I didn't specify.

    True. I wasn't suggesting this was an equivalent question, just that it is a useful question to ask yourself to help answer the original question. If you are hoping for a call, you must be betting for value, but you (and Janda) are right that it doesn't follow that if you want a fold you are bluffing,

    A value bet has greater than 50% equity against an opponent's calling range. If we're insisting on this simple binary classification, everything else must be a bluff.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,863 -
    edited December 2019
    The Mule wrote: »
    jeffnc wrote: »
    The Mule wrote: »
    Do you want a call or a fold ?

    According to Janda this can't be the deciding factor, because sometimes you have the best hand with more equity and still prefer a fold. To be fair, this depends on money in the pot, which I didn't specify.

    True. I wasn't suggesting this was an equivalent question, just that it is a useful question to ask yourself to help answer the original question. If you are hoping for a call, you must be betting for value, but you (and Janda) are right that it doesn't follow that if you want a fold you are bluffing,

    A value bet has greater than 50% equity against an opponent's calling range. If we're insisting on this simple binary classification, everything else must be a bluff.

    Therein is the lesson.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Therein is the lesson.

    Right. If anyone thought I had "the" answer, I don't. It's been interesting to think about though. It's hard to wrap your head around the idea of having the best hand right now, charging your opponent to realize his equity, while still putting your money in bad and calling that value.
  • canconcancon Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    Can we think of an analogy to some other kind of money game...like buying securities? I can't off the top of my head but there must be examples of this principle at work in 'games' other than poker no?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Therein is the lesson.

    Right. If anyone thought I had "the" answer, I don't. It's been interesting to think about though. It's hard to wrap your head around the idea of having the best hand right now, charging your opponent to realize his equity, while still putting your money in bad and calling that value.

    Because people shall not think in binary terms of "best hand" / "worst hand", but in equity distribution. there is not black/white situation, only shades of grey.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maybe another way to look at this is from the perspective of your opponent. Does he want you to shove or not? The way I stated this particular situation it's hard for your opponent to know if you have :AH::KH: or whatever.
  • canconcancon Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    It seems neither you nor your opponent are happy facing a shove from each other.

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