Harveys Lake Tahoe 2/3NLHE (Don't Pay Off Rule?)

Chris_VChris_V BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 72 ✭✭
edited December 2019 in Live Poker Hands
Playing at Harveys 2/3 NL. All pots are multiway, my x3 preflop opens do not thin the field. Maybe need to try x5 tomorrow. Most play is not very aggressive with some players always thinking the nuts are out there.

Table 10 Handed
Hero UTG: 100BB
Hole Cards: :Qs:Js

Villain has been drinking and is loud, boisterous, and is in almost every hand for a limp.

Action: Hero Raise to 3.3BB, call, Villian call, fold, fold, call, fold, fold, call, fold
Pot: 17.3BB, SPR: 5.6

Flop: :Jd:Tc:5s

Action: check, Hero bets 6.6BB, call, Villain raises to 26.6BB, fold, fold, Hero?

Villain has Hero covered.

We put a probe bet out there to see if there was any resistance. We found it and now have to decipher what it means. Would he raise around 3/4 pot with anything Hero can beat knowing so many players are left to act? I know Villains sometimes raise with draws but this seems like a large bet for the flop. Is it to tight or right to fold here?

Comments

  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2019
    I’m not sure the flop bet is a great idea. While our hand is slightly vulnerable to overcards, we’ll pick up a straight draw any time a K or an A comes. Moreover when that K or A is a spade, we pick up the flush draw as well.

    Given Vs style, I would treat this hand as a bluff catcher from the start. It’s going to be tough to get 3 streets here and we can strengthen our checking range by keeping some of our weaker top pairs in there.

    I think what happens a lot in these spots is one bets twice, gets called, and doesn’t know what to do for the river and we have an opponent who likely will be willing to bluff us.

    That said after the bet, we block some of his OESDs but based on your flop bet sizing, it’s possible V could attack you pretty wide.

    EDIT: I don’t think the flop sizing is bad Per se as using a smaller size MW is viable but sometimes you’ll see people attack bet sizings they’d never use solely because they think them a sign of weakness. But recall he raised with people behind so I would assign a tad more strength to his raising range as opposed to doing it HU or MW but he’s last to act. I also didn’t realize at first how many players were in the hand so maybe betting flop is more viable just to thin the field a bit but I’m not too sure tbh /edit

    I think betting the flop at all puts us in a tough spot as our hand certainly doesn’t want to fold but can’t stand much more heat.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    And just for clarity sake, you aren’t probing the flop. You’re firing a continuation bet.

    A probe would be in a situation where the PFR doesn’t cbet and then you fire the next street. You cannot probe the flop in any situation, by definition.
  • Chris_VChris_V BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 72 ✭✭
    edited December 2019
    I'm on vacation so I won't see any of these players ever again. Seems like in situations like this I can get away with over folding. I don't have to worry that they will catch on and I can wait for many better situations to be in.

    As the hand went, Hero did call and the cold caller to their left did also.

    Pot: 130 (Rounding to nearest BB less $4 rake and $1 Drop)
    Hero's Stack: 70BB
    Turn: :Td:Jc:5s:6h

    Action: Hero Checks, check, Villain bets 20BB, Hero Calls, Cold Caller calls.

    Curious bet size. Pot odds of 7.5 to 1 . Hero thinks Cold Caller possibly has the best hand or is on the draw. Hero's call on the Flop has locked them in to calling this bet hoping Villain is getting out of line and cold caller is on the draw.

    Pot: 190BB
    Hero's Stack: 50BB

    River: :Td:Jc:5s:6h:Ad

    Action: Check, Check, Check

    I'll be playing again tonight. I think I will keep trying these small "continuation ;)" bets to see how the field reacts. Then overfold to aggression when the SPR is medium to high.
  • Chris_VChris_V BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 72 ✭✭
    My reasoning for betting small on the flop stems from this little Upswing Poker gem in their 10-laws-of-Live-Poker:

    " Law 2 - Bet small in Multiway Pots

    Betting small in multiway pots allows you to bet many types of hands on the flop – hands you wouldn’t be able to profitably bet for a larger size. When you bet, your opponents are forced to react in a very precise manner with their range because of the many variables at play.

    You should also use small bet sizes in multiway pots online, but it’s especially good against live players because they are prone to making mistakes. Additionally, live players typically have much wider ranges with a lot more junky hands, which means your small bet will force more folds and run
    into fewer strong hands.

    Once you get to the turn, when hand ranges are more defined, you can start breaking out the more typical
    bet sizes (66% pot or more)."
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 530 ✭✭✭
    Oh I certainly think a small sizing is warranted. I just also know a certain type of player tends to attack them too often (which is often going to make a mistake.)

    If we are going to bet, I agree a smaller sizing is better, I’m just not sure if this is a good hand to bet in this situation. Interested to hear what others think.
  • Chris_VChris_V BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 72 ✭✭
    I just also know a certain type of player tends to attack them too often (which is often going to make a mistake.)

    I'll look to see if players in this game are making plays like that. The problem for that strategy, and I know Ed Miller loved to make moves like that, may be that there are too many short stacks and calling stations for that type of play to make sense with this particular player pool. I will keep a lookout for it though.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The "probe" bet was only recently standardized by HUD usage. I wouldn't get too worked up over what it might mean. They're also trying to convince us that "float bet" is good wording now.
  • Mr_Big_StackMr_Big_Stack Over The RoadRed Chipper Posts: 29 ✭✭
    OP I'm curious, are you primarily an online player? I ask because of the miniscule open raise size and the hand you chose. At the live games I play, 5x is my starting point. QJs is a hand I would open for balance after showing down with strong hands.

    So you noticed that your opening raise size wasn't thinning the field. When did you decide that a larger size was the correct adjustment? It should have quickly become apparent that a higher opening size was warranted and your play should have reflected that the very next time you opened. If you noticed that your bluffs were repeatedly getting called, would you wait until the next session to make adjustments?

    OTF you are OOP in a 5(!) way pot. A large bet induces your opponents to play correctly. However I don't necessarily agree with the thinking in the Upswing excerpt. The next player to act is getting better than 3.5:1 direct odds. A down bet is more likely to cause a stampede of callers. It would appear that the ranges OTT are less defined if anything. Betting in to 4 opponents with a pair seems like lighting money on fire.
  • Chris_VChris_V BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 72 ✭✭
    edited January 2
    We can debate my bet on the flop, but I really don't like my call.

    The raise from that player just meant I was beat. Last night that same player was at the table. I raised in early position with :Ks:Kc multiple players called including the Villain from the above hand. The flop came :2h:6h:8h . I checked and he bet $25 into a $40 pot. I was the only caller. On the turn when :5d came he bet $25 again. I called. One the river the :Ad came and he bet $30. I called and he had bluffed all the way. He said, "I thought my bets would scare you out". To me, this is a much different bet sizing and situation than when he raised the flop in the original post. If he had made his bets larger (60% pot or more) I would have folded my Kings.

    After playing in the same game last night I really like seeing 4 or 5 people calling x3.3 to x5BB bets pre-flop only to mostly end up folding to my 20% to 30% pot size bets on the flop. Once I was check raised by a player on the draw, I looked to my left seeing a short stack looking anxious to call. I was able to fold out my mediocre equity and see that I was beat pretty bad on the flop by that short stack while the draw completed on the turn.

    Other times I would bet a "static" flop and win it right there. I think betting small on the flop vs multiple opponents has a lot of advantages.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    OP I'm curious, are you primarily an online player? I ask because of the miniscule open raise size

    Not to mention the "3.3 BB raise" notation :) OP, $10 is easier to read.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is not a preflop hand you really want to be raising small from UTG into 10 players who are not that likely to fold, it's more a hand you want to call a small raise on the button when 4 other people have already called. While you might say "what's the difference, it worked out the same way", we still have to play poker postflop. Given as played to the turn, you're stack committed to that suspicious bet sizing so I would probably shove at that point, but I wouldn't have gotten to that point myself.
  • Mr_Big_StackMr_Big_Stack Over The RoadRed Chipper Posts: 29 ✭✭
    We can debate my bet on the flop, but I really don't like my call.
    jeffnc wrote: »
    "... but I wouldn't have gotten to that point myself.

    I see this a lot (I fall victim to this myself). A hand is posted and the replies focus on a part of the hand that the OP appears to give less importance to. IMHO in this case OP, it's the actions you took that lead to facing a raise that are important.

    You opened a hand UTG for a size that you were confident would induce multiple callers. This means that our fold equity will be low. The SPR will leave you without room to maneuver.

    You bloated the pot by leading in to four opponents with nothing more than a pair. With a bet size that contrary to what the Upswing excerpt states, induces (at least in my experience at low stakes) your opponents to call leaving you more in the dark not less. This results in getting smacked with an almost PSB raise.

    BTW am I the only that doesn't see what the Villains had at showdown?



  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    3bb raise UTG is small even by online standards.

    I’m not a big fan of putting myself voluntarily out of position for the whole hand without something strong myself and QJs isn’t that strong on a passive calling table.

    You have bloated the pot and are out of position. Say the flop was KTx rainbow. How do you plan on getting value out of your huge draw? Checking sucks, check calling sucks, leading sucks against several players.

    Personally, I save that hand for LP where you have much more data to work with.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BTW am I the only that doesn't see what the Villains had at showdown?

    No, I don't know.

    Regarding the hand and villain's raise - as played it certainly looks suspicious that he made a big raise on the flop, and then made a tiny bet on the turn when no draws came in.

  • Chris_VChris_V BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 72 ✭✭
    edited January 2
    You opened a hand UTG for a size that you were confident would induce multiple callers. This means that our fold equity will be low. The SPR will leave you without room to maneuver.

    I don't agree with this premise. I believe that it is good to bloat the pot preflop in this game because the players tend to play fit or fold later on and don't take pot odds into account. It doesn't matter if they are getting 2 to 1 odds or 7 to 1 odds. If they don't hit that flop with their :9h:5h or :7d:6s they are gone on the flop. End yes, I saw a bunch of weird two pair hands in this game. But mostly they fold on the flop to small bets.
  • Chris_VChris_V BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 72 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    BTW am I the only that doesn't see what the Villains had at showdown?

    No, I don't know.

    Regarding the hand and villain's raise - as played it certainly looks suspicious that he made a big raise on the flop, and then made a tiny bet on the turn when no draws came in.

    Cold caller had :Qc:Kd and Villain had :Ts:Jd .
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,993 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Villain had :Ts:Jd .

    Bizarre

  • CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 168 ✭✭
    Chris_Villalobos wrote: »
    We can debate my bet on the flop, but I really don't like my call.

    The flop bet makes the flop call very bad. If UTG does not cbet, UTG can then call a single bet without too much issue.
    You opened a hand UTG for a size that you were confident would induce multiple callers. This means that our fold equity will be low. The SPR will leave you without room to maneuver.

    I don't agree with this premise. I believe that it is good to bloat the pot preflop in this game because the players tend to play fit or fold later on and don't take pot odds into account. It doesn't matter if they are getting 2 to 1 odds or 7 to 1 odds. If they don't hit that flop with their :9h:5h or :7d:6s they are gone on the flop. End yes, I saw a bunch of weird two pair hands in this game. But mostly they fold on the flop to small bets.

    This strategy works fine if the player can navigate postflop very well and recognize flop texture as well who's range the flop helps. Pots need to be fought for and taken away from opponents with a strategy like this.
    Or folded when an RD flop is getting a lot of action.
  • Chris_VChris_V BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 72 ✭✭
    The more I think about it the more checking the flop becomes obvious. There aren't many cards that can come on the turn that are terrible for my hand. Any spade gives me outs to a flush, and a King (or 9) gives me a straight draw. An Ace isn't even so bad, the Ace of Spades gives me the flush draw and gut-shot nut straight draw. So my hand is fairly "robust" and doesn't mind giving a free card to the field.

    Also, if it's checked though any blank card on the turn makes my hand very strong and worth betting.

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