OESD on flop In Straddle pot

SixthStreetSixthStreet Red Chipper Posts: 260 ✭✭
Hero ($115) in mandatory straddle spot :9h:8d
3 limpers
BB calls
Hero checks
flop ($20) :Th:7s:5c
Hero check
check
V1 ($650) bets $10
V2($450) raises $30
BB folds. Also can see first limper waiting for me to fold so he can.
Hero?
Please give me detailed reasons. Don't just say fold or call tell me why.

Comments

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22
    Please give me detailed reasons.

    This will be difficult, since you gave us literally no details about how villain 1, villain 2, or even you play, or have been playing. I feel lucky to have seen your cards. I feel rather proud of myself for even calculating the stakes you were playing at. But at least I know you don't always raise 98o from bad position after 4 limpers, and I know you don't always semi-bluff into a field of 4 players when there was no preflop raise. Although maybe you do sometimes. So there's that.

    When there is a raise, please be more specific about the raise amount. Did V2 raise $30, or raise to $30? We cannot do even a simple pot odds calculation without that info, let alone a real analysis.

    Assuming he raised to $30, and assuming we're playing this purely for value, then we need to know if we have the correct combination of immediate pot odds, implied odds, and reverse implied odds to continue.

    You have 8 clean outs to the nuts, so you will win or share the pot on the turn if you hit. The odds of that are about 5:1. You are currently getting $60/$30 or 2:1. V1 might call in which case you're getting $80/$30 or 2.7:1. You need it to be $150 to break even, so you need to make $70 more after the turn somehow, when the pot will be $100, assuming V1 calls and assuming V2 doesn't reraise. And assuming you don't share the pot.

    Now add in:
    - you might miss the turn and have to call another bet. Or not.
    - V1 might not call
    - V1 might reraise
    - they might both fold if you shove right now
    - you might make your straight on the turn but lose to a better hand on the river
    - you might make your straight on the river, but because of the turn card it might no longer be the nuts, in which case you might or might not win the hand

    All those things are affected by your opponent ranges and betting tendencies. Plug in all those things, and you'll have an answer.

  • SixthStreetSixthStreet Red Chipper Posts: 260 ✭✭
    Thanks Jeffnc. first about villians I should of added never seen them before. In my mind I typed to $30. As for me I was playing pretty tight making few big moves. Most people at this table were new to me and trying to figure them out. V1. V2. both took seats maybe 4 hands before this one.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    You seem to be looking at this call-or-fold, whereas my first instinct in this spot is to ask "can I raise?"

    When V2 raises the flop in this type of game, you have basically zero fold equity (particularly given your stack). So maybe you answered that question for yourself already.

    Then what Jeff said. To me the basic issue is that against a plausible raising range that includes sets you're in bad shape.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23
    ...
    Please give me detailed reasons. Don't just say fold or call tell me why.
    We have no info on the blinds, the effective stack, villains' profile or tendencies, eventual history between players, your strategy or a glimpse of an analysis for you.
    Yet you ask us to do your job.
    If I want to have random hand history without much info (aka having to find or assume them myself), I prefer to dig into great hands played by pro where I can actually learn smth.
    So na, I'm out. Do your homework (HH presentation, analysis) and then I'll share my thoughts.

    #frustrated
  • SixthStreetSixthStreet Red Chipper Posts: 260 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    ...
    Please give me detailed reasons. Don't just say fold or call tell me why.
    We have no info on the blinds, the effective stack, villains' profile or tendencies, eventual history between players, your strategy or a glimpse of an analysis for you.
    Yet you ask us to do your job.
    If I want to have random hand history without much info (aka having to find or assume them myself), I prefer to dig into great hands played by pro where I can actually learn smth.
    So na, I'm out. Do your homework (HH presentation, analysis) and then I'll share my thoughts.

    #frustrated

    Yes missed information.
  • Doogal_DDoogal_D Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    ...
    Please give me detailed reasons. Don't just say fold or call tell me why.
    We have no info on the blinds, the effective stack, villains' profile or tendencies, eventual history between players, your strategy or a glimpse of an analysis for you.
    Yet you ask us to do your job.
    If I want to have random hand history without much info (aka having to find or assume them myself), I prefer to dig into great hands played by pro where I can actually learn smth.
    So na, I'm out. Do your homework (HH presentation, analysis) and then I'll share my thoughts.

    #frustrated

    Yes missed information.

    Red, apologies if I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

    I believe what Red is referring to is:
    - you referenced stack sized post-flop, not pre-flop as is standard
    - you didn't mention stakes
    - you didn't explain where the limpers were

    There may be other reasons but those are the ones that I caught right away. Persuadeo actually made a great article on hand histories that is shockingly not followed by most peoe posting today (considering how long ago he wrote it). I hope it's okay for me to link to it here https://persuadeo.nl/hand-histories/
    If you want others to give you their opinion, you don't want to ask them to do the math for you. Give them the info so they can best suggest how they would act in the same spot that you were in.
    The reasoning behind this is the fact that NLHE is an incredibly complex game given the vast number of variables that can potentially affect every decision. By omitting variables, we inherently (whether unintentional or intentional) effect what others can suggest they would do given being faced the situation.

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