JJ in the SB

Bill SBill S Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
Hi all,
I am going to post this in the live hand thread because its from a club game and i have zero stats and new to the game so few reads, but it is a .10c/.20c game on-line

Hero in Sb with $43 behind. Game just started.
Villain in HJ with $44. No stats except V has a VPIP of 45% ish.
Game is 7 handed

Folds to V, who R to .60C.
Folds to Hero in Sb with :Js:Jh . H 3 bets to $1.80.
BB folds.
V calls

Pot $3.80
Flop :Qc:5s:3c
Hero bets $2.53.
V calls

Pot $8.86
Turn :6c

Hero?

Comments on all decision points welcome. If you get to the turn differently, please share that as well.
Thanks in advance


Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    Suggest bigger 3-bet pre and smaller flop c-bet. Turn: check.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • gheatza111gheatza111 Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    Yes, try a minimum of 4x size oop 3bet in order to give worst odds for your opponent to call. I personally like to check here with JJ and try balancing that with some air.

    If it goes check-check on the flop, I’m gonna bet half pot on the turn to get value from worst pocket pairs and flushes to the nuts, maybe some oesd like 87s.

    If it goes check-bet, I’m gonna call once on the flop and fold to a double barrel on that turn.
  • Bill SBill S Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    larger 3 bet makes sense. Check PF for balance sounds reasonable and something i don't do nearly enough.

    To finish hand.

    Turn :6c
    pot $8.86

    hero bets $5.90
    Villain raises to $15.80.

    hero folds.
    Dont love the bet fold,
    Really didnt like the check fold option either.
    Didnt consider the check call option at all.

    Didnt consider the check.raise option at the time (and still dont think its the best play) but against villains wide range there has to be some hands he would let go.

    Views on these other lines are appreciated



  • RyanH1995RyanH1995 Red Chipper Posts: 86 ✭✭
    Like others said I think you can size up your 3bet pre and size down on the flop. There is no need to polarize on this flop with your range and especially with your exact hand. I don't see what this turn bet accomplishes. What hands are you looking to get value from on the turn? The only hands I think you could get value from on turn are maybe 88-TT with a club but I don't think that justifies a turn bet.
  • Bill SBill S Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    RyanH1995 wrote: »
    Like others said I think you can size up your 3bet pre and size down on the flop. There is no need to polarize on this flop with your range and especially with your exact hand. I don't see what this turn bet accomplishes. What hands are you looking to get value from on the turn? The only hands I think you could get value from on turn are maybe 88-TT with a club but I don't think that justifies a turn bet.

    fair point. I just ran it all through flopzilla and I clearly see there isnt much left after the flop call that I beat once the club comes. . In real time, i want putting all that together fast enough.
    Thanks
  • CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 168 ✭✭
    Bill S wrote: »

    Didnt consider the check.raise option at the time (and still dont think its the best play) but against villains wide range there has to be some hands he would let go.

    Views on these other lines are appreciated



    Whats this wide range you've assigned villain here?
  • Bill SBill S Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    CASEY M wrote: »
    Bill S wrote: »

    Didnt consider the check.raise option at the time (and still dont think its the best play) but against villains wide range there has to be some hands he would let go.

    Views on these other lines are appreciated



    Whats this wide range you've assigned villain here?

    Well, that was real time thinking so lets work that out and see if there is any logic to that thinking.

    I had him at 30% combos PF at raise, then dropped down to 21% calling my 3bet.
    His call of my flop bet removes some of the weak pairs and all of the non flush combos that didnt connect, so he is down to about 8%, but his lack of raise doesnt cap him at all so i assume he still has all the nut draws, top pairs, sets.

    In real time I was thinking bet/fold to target whatever draws and weak pairs he floated with (like AKd,TT, etc) BUT as I work out the numbers on flopzilla there isnt any "etc" left. There really isnt much he gets there with that isnt best already or got there with the club.

    So having laid all those assumptions out, to answer your question. The range he had at turn before I bet was
    AKc-A2c
    KJc-K8c
    JTc, J9c
    QQ, 55, 33

    9 combos each of AQ, KQ
    5 combos QJ
    3 combos QTs and Q(s

    His range has 89% equity after the 6c comes.

    I dont know if i answered your question or if your question was rhetorical, but my answer apparently i was targeting AKd and pocket TT ...lol

    He just has a lot of Q's here and what isnt a Q is a club draw.
  • CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 168 ✭✭
    edited January 25
    With these holdings on turn, clearly your only option vs this extreme value range is x/f. I get that this is from your off table work post hand.

    I think I know the club game in question and the above range is way too narrow for nearly every player in that game IMO. This range lacks any bluffs or semi bluffs that would be in HJ range. I suggest adding some more poled holdings that would call your flop bet and be incentivized to raise turn. Working backwards from turn to flop to preflop has been very helpful for me when assessing ranges and bet sizings.
  • Bill SBill S Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    CASEY M wrote: »
    With these holdings on turn, clearly your only option vs this extreme value range is x/f. I get that this is from your off table work post hand.

    I think I know the club game in question and the above range is way too narrow for nearly every player in that game IMO. This range lacks any bluffs or semi bluffs that would be in HJ range. I suggest adding some more poled holdings that would call your flop bet and be incentivized to raise turn. Working backwards from turn to flop to preflop has been very helpful for me when assessing ranges and bet sizings.

    will do. thanks.
  • Bill SBill S Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    With the board :Qc:5s:3c:6c

    Right off the bat

    Semi-bluffs
    i would add in the offsuit :Ac x broadway hands and wheel hands, which put all the combo draw hands in play like :Ac:5h, :Ac:2d in play Those could be polarized hands he is semi-bluffing with. there is always 54s, 44, 43s, but villain would need to have a pretty wide open PF range to get to the turn with these. AKo with a club, but sometimes he would raise those earlier.
    76s picks up some equity on the turn. I guess he could also raise with any pair that involved a club.


    Pure bluffs- TT-77 without a club, AKs spades might float and rep clubs on a scary turn.
    A2 and A4 non clubs are back in play as good bluff hands
    Put these back in and his equity is almost a coinflip.

    Add in that my image is nittish and i was in the SB, i am somewhat capped and have less Q's, it would be a decent spot to push back.

    Lots to consider here.
  • CASEY MCASEY M Red Chipper Posts: 168 ✭✭
    TT-77 has too much SDV to turn into a bluff vs your turn bet. I think AKs non clubs might employ a mix strategy here, so weight it accordingly. All suited Ace wheels are worth looking at. 45, 56, 67 are going to call the flop bet and can fit in an IP pf calling range for some players. Especially vs a SB 3bet from a player who is perceived as tight.
  • Ataxia13Ataxia13 Red Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    edited January 27
    Bill S wrote: »
    RyanH1995 wrote: »
    "In real time, i want putting all that together fast enough."

    My Comments below not Bill's. I am new and I don't know how to show Quotes then my comments.

    Bill if we could put it all together in real-time we wouldn't be on the forum. :-) All that we can do is learn from our mistakes and hopefully, they don't cost us too much.

    A couple of other lines to consider:
    Check the flop - if smallish bet maybe check-raise
    Check the flop - if smallish bet call - Check turn and re-raise if bet into.

    I am trying to take these sorts of lines lately. I play live and check-raising is a very strong move that usually confuses my opponent. I rarely check-raise with air and either have a hand that has showdown value or a decent draw.
  • Bill SBill S Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    Ataxia13 wrote: »
    Bill S wrote: »
    RyanH1995 wrote: »
    "In real time, i want putting all that together fast enough."

    My Comments below not Bill's. I am new and I don't know how to show Quotes then my comments.

    Bill if we could put it all together in real-time we wouldn't be on the forum. :-) All that we can do is learn from our mistakes and hopefully, they don't cost us too much.

    A couple of other lines to consider:
    Check the flop - if smallish bet maybe check-raise
    Check the flop - if smallish bet call - Check turn and re-raise if bet into.

    I am trying to take these sorts of lines lately. I play live and check-raising is a very strong move that usually confuses my opponent. I rarely check-raise with air and either have a hand that has showdown value or a decent draw.

    thanks for those ideas.

    To do quotes, look under the persons comment and you will see a quote button. click that and a new window opens with he quote in it...just type below
  • Ataxia13Ataxia13 Red Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    Bill S wrote: »
    Ataxia13 wrote: »
    Bill S wrote: »
    RyanH1995 wrote: »
    "In real time, i want putting all that together fast enough."

    My Comments below not Bill's. I am new and I don't know how to show Quotes then my comments.

    Bill if we could put it all together in real-time we wouldn't be on the forum. :-) All that we can do is learn from our mistakes and hopefully, they don't cost us too much.

    A couple of other lines to consider:
    Check the flop - if smallish bet maybe check-raise
    Check the flop - if smallish bet call - Check turn and re-raise if bet into.

    I am trying to take these sorts of lines lately. I play live and check-raising is a very strong move that usually confuses my opponent. I rarely check-raise with air and either have a hand that has showdown value or a decent draw.

    thanks for those ideas.

    To do quotes, look under the persons comment and you will see a quote button. click that and a new window opens with he quote in it...just type below

    Got it, thanks.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Ffs

    May I quote you on that?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭

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