line check in 3bet pot bb vs btn w Ahigh

Joe DoreJoe Dore Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
villain here is 16/11 over 160 with 100% cbet and 33% fold to 3bet.

In this spot I'm definitely raising for value as he'll call w many worse hands. after watching the webinar on cbetting OOP I'm trying to play and experiment more and add more c/c lines in my game; especially with 1pair/2pair holdings. on a flop like this I'd likely be c/calling with most of my range. A4s/77+ overs. I'm not looking to call too many streets w junk but w 6 outs for almost the worst part of my range I don't seeing a turn with AQ/AJ+ A2-Ts looking for a BDFD.

turn gets checked through. I expected a lot of stabbing on the flop from V and likely would be c/calling another bet on the turn w A4x, pps etc. flush draws that I picked up with the plan to lead on the river.

river bricks and I have Ahigh. npw I'd be betting all my value and some non SD garbage. I can't think of too many worse hands I'd have here except A2-Ts that c/c on the flop looking to pick up the BDFD and I was ready to toss on the turn Is this hand bad enough to turn into a bluff or would this be a better candidate to c/c since it would have some SD value or possibly bluff catch w AQ/AK?

PokerStars - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 85.6 BB
Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 136.2 BB
UTG+1: 100 BB
MP: 125.8 BB
MP+1: 102 BB
MP+2: 100 BB
CO: 155.8 BB
BTN: 130.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A:club: Q:spade:

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, SB calls 2.6 BB, Hero raises to 12 BB, BTN calls 9 BB, fold

Flop: (27 BB, 2 players) 4:club: 4:heart: 7:diamond:
Hero checks, BTN bets 17.2 BB, Hero calls 17.2 BB

Turn: (61.4 BB, 2 players) T:club:
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: (61.4 BB, 2 players) J:spade:
Hero ?
Tagged:

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,927 -
    Do you think V expects you to ck-ca most of your range? I think the danger here is many V's will look at your flop check and put you on exactly the kind of hand you have. I think I prefer a small c-bet, particularly given the BDFD, then when the turn brings the second club I can see a barrel.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Joe DoreJoe Dore Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Do you think V expects you to ck-ca most of your range? I think the danger here is many V's will look at your flop check and put you on exactly the kind of hand you have. I think I prefer a small c-bet, particularly given the BDFD, then when the turn brings the second club I can see a barrel.

    Fair point and I'd agree with you.

    That being said though would there be more value in checking the range not worrying too much about what V puts you on. If V isn't expecting us to take this line and puts us on overs doesn't that create a lot of value for our made hands?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,927 -
    Joe Dore wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Do you think V expects you to ck-ca most of your range? I think the danger here is many V's will look at your flop check and put you on exactly the kind of hand you have. I think I prefer a small c-bet, particularly given the BDFD, then when the turn brings the second club I can see a barrel.

    Fair point and I'd agree with you.

    That being said though would there be more value in checking the range not worrying too much about what V puts you on. If V isn't expecting us to take this line and puts us on overs doesn't that create a lot of value for our made hands?

    Hmmm. Interesting.

    I guess the answer to that riddle needs to factor in the % of our hands we can reasonably think of as "made" and the tendencies of villain. My instinct is we'd need an opponent who attacks perceived weakness *really* hard in order for us to prefer checking range.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Joe DoreJoe Dore Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    similar scenario to another hand I posted. https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/13167/live-2-5-line-check#latest

    Of course that hand we're in POS but similar idea.

    really what made hands do we have on a 447 flop? What better hands than 88+ fold? what worse hands call? having separate ranges for bet/bet/bet and c/c, c/r etc would be really hard to do.

    with the AQ hand. even if we had AA we have little vulnerability
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,927 -
    edited February 12
    Joe Dore wrote: »
    similar scenario to another hand I posted. https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/13167/live-2-5-line-check#latest

    Of course that hand we're in POS but similar idea.

    really what made hands do we have on a 447 flop? What better hands than 88+ fold? what worse hands call? having separate ranges for bet/bet/bet and c/c, c/r etc would be really hard to do.

    with the AQ hand. even if we had AA we have little vulnerability

    Both you and V are effectively capped, but you're capped at AA whereas they're capped at... what JJ? QQ? Technically they're more likely to have 77 than you, but that's a bit of a black swan. Given neither of you hit this flop in the conventional sense, doesn't that mean they are going to call pretty light?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Joe DoreJoe Dore Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    That's what I'm starting to wonder. even at 5nl and 1/2 live I'm not finding 3 streets of value with a simple bet bet bet line unless we are opponent specific. I'm really starting to wonder if we have much more value by going with 2 streets or by checking and allowing our opponent to have some triple barrels in their range. By keeping their range wide we're letting our 1 pair hands retain their value.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,221 ✭✭✭✭
    Why not c-bet ? Such a missed opportunity !
  • Joe DoreJoe Dore Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Why not c-bet ? Such a missed opportunity !

    but why are we cbetting with? is it for value? is it a bluff? what worse calls, what better folds? if we're cbetting AQo here then I'm assuming we're also betting all pairs, draws, sets. what's the plan for the turn if we're called? c/f?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,221 ✭✭✭✭
    Joe Dore wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    Why not c-bet ? Such a missed opportunity !

    but why are we cbetting with? is it for value? is it a bluff? what worse calls, what better folds? if we're cbetting AQo here then I'm assuming we're also betting all pairs, draws, sets. what's the plan for the turn if we're called? c/f?

    First, the answer comes from (your) off-table analysis: hand v. range or range v. range. It helps having a clear idea of the situation, necessary to have the best strategy and line.
    (There is a pro RCP video about board analysis which cover different kind of board and the definition of "hitting", which you could find interesting to understand this spot)

    Second, it's both.
    Yet I really really dislike having to pick between "value" and "bluff". These terms are kinda exclusive, and are hard to define. I way prefer the concepts of Janda, "building the pot in case we win" and "denying equity" - both not being exclusive. Using Janda, we (at least I) can have a deeper understanding and strategy of the situation.
  • RyanH1995RyanH1995 Red Chipper Posts: 66 ✭✭
    You are cbetting here because you have a massive range advantage here. While it is unlikely either one of you will have a boat or trips on this flop very often the top of your value range dominates his. You always have QQ-AA and he doesn't. The top of your range wants to get value from his weaker pairs and Ace highs that will float the flop. You also have plenty of bluffs like 98s, KQs, 54s that have no showdown value and benefit greatly from getting folds on the flop.
  • Joe DoreJoe Dore Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    how many streets of value to we really expect to get from V's range on a 447 board? what does V have that will call a bet bet bet line to SD?
  • RyanH1995RyanH1995 Red Chipper Posts: 66 ✭✭
    The top of your value range will want to go for 3 streets of value. You will have TT, JJ, JT, QQ-AA that want to play for stacks. Villain will also have TT, JJ and JT at some frequency but he should also have some hands like AJcc, KJcc, KTdd that should call a flop bet and continue on the turn as well. If you check this flop what do you do with your bluffs that never win at showdown? The top of your value range may struggle to get 3 streets but your entire range as a whole benefits much more from betting flop.

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