AK on the button.... When to slow play

Suicideking1_Suicideking1_ Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
Hi everyone this is my first hand history and I hope that I'm making it clear, informative and helpful.

The game is a loose and extremely aggressive 1/2 cash game. Relativley early in the night as almost everyone is on their first buy in. Hero is sitting on the button with a stack of 215 and is dealt AKo.

Action is raised to $5 from Ep and everyone calls to the button. Hero 3 bets to $25 and get 5 callers to the flop bringing the pot size to $125.

The flop Qh, Jc, 10d rainbow. The Nutz!!!


checked around and hero checks on the button

Turn 5h

UTG +1 bets $40 from a stack of 175. Folded to button. (villain here is a VERY skilled semi pro. moderately loose and very aggressive.)

hero raises to $130. Villian calls. Pot $385

River 7h

Villian bets out his last $45....

What is villian holding!$


thanks for reading and any feedback and discussion welcomed!!









Comments

  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 641 ✭✭✭
    Pot size should be 150 with 5 callers :)

    Why aren't you betting the flop?
  • Suicideking1_Suicideking1_ Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    edited February 17
    Sorry 4 callers. 5 to see the flop including myself.


    flopping the stone nuts at that point on a rainbow board with no draws that are likely to get there was my reasoning. Wanted some medium strength hands to get there on the turn for value.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    Sorry 4 callers. 5 to see the flop including myself.


    flopping the stone nuts at that point on a rainbow board with no draws that are likely to get there was my reasoning. Wanted some medium strength hands to get there on the turn for value.

    I think the thing to recognize is that the board connects with so many calling ranges that c-betting here will get action.

    Incidentally, all those calls of the initial open wouldn't lead me to conclude this game is "extremely aggressive".
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Suicideking1_Suicideking1_ Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    That is a good point about the board connecting with a lot of calling hands.

    And Even if having 4 callers call a 12x preflop raise from the button in a 1/2 game doesn't make it aggressive I was providing background info on the game. The joke at the table is commonly "$170 raise preflop? looks like a sign of weakness to me!"

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    If betting large is perceived as weakness, I think this further simplifies your flop decision.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • BigFudgeBigFudge Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    edited February 20
    Agree with Kat. In a loose game (either aggressive or passive) no need to slow play the nuts and especially when the flop hits all ranges. All you are doing is losing streets of value. In a particularly LAGgy game I might bet small if I think it might induce a bluff but I’m betting something for sure. General rule I probably pot this flop on this table...

    On the turn it’s interesting that V didn’t just push the rest in. I guess otherwise I agree with the raise the sizing is about right with other opponents still to act (not sure if there was anybody in the UTG/SB/BB), however if you were last to act I’d raise enough to get his stack in. Again though, if you bet the flop and the pot was bigger on the turn he probably bets bigger and then you can raise enough to get his stack in either way.

    On the river I just don’t understand the question...it doesn’t matter what he has. Sure he could have backed into a flush but he also could have just been calling with a ton of two pair and even some set combos or busted combo draws (pair with straight draw). I never fold this for $45. I call and find out what he has. Please tell me you didn’t fold this...
  • EurocratEurocrat Red Chipper Posts: 73 ✭✭
    edited February 21
    Sorry 4 callers. 5 to see the flop including myself.


    flopping the stone nuts at that point on a rainbow board with no draws that are likely to get there was my reasoning. Wanted some medium strength hands to get there on the turn for value.

    When considering to slowplay, another thing to consider is how likely the board is going to change in a way that it kills your action. In most cases, I don't like to slowplay a straight on a 1-2-3 board for that reason. If there is K coming, you're not getting value from anyone and will have to split with Ax that is out there.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21
    I agree with most of what's written so far. You left off some information so I'm going on the assumption that you're not necessarily thinking about all the right things in this game.

    You don't specify what "everyone" means (i.e. how many people are in your game.) You also didn't say exactly what "EP" means. These are good to know for preflop raise sizing etc. I'll assume this is a 9 handed game and EP means UTG+1 (although this doesn't make much sense either because you described UTG+1 later, but what can I do.) You also don't mention the suits of your cards (we need to know where the :AH: and :KH: are.)

    So EP raised and 4 people called. This is a tiny "pot builder" raise, and people are coming in with a very wide range. By the way, this particular hand is very passive, not "extremely aggressive" - you didn't say if this hand was unusual or not so I don't know if you know what aggressive means or if this was just an unusual hand. This is important to know for hand ranging.

    You have AK and obviously you are going to raise, to how much is the question. The pot is $25, so a pot sized raise would be the minimum I would do, and that would be putting $35 out there. You could also consider putting $50 out there. You should consider what kind of hand you have and what kind of hand you're likely to flop, which is top pair/top kicker. If you get 1 or 2 callers at $50, this sets up a perfect SPR and shove amount on the flop. You are obviously going to shove if you hit, but you can also shove if you miss as well since most likely your opponent also missed and you still have the best hand, and usually 6 outs if you don't.

    So that opportunity is passed, and now we end up getting extremely lucky and flopping the nuts. Unfortunately you passed on this opportunity as well, and that opportunity is a flop that gives you the nuts, but also gives lots of other people good hands they can call with. This hand is just crawling with hands that your opponents would have hit, given their willingness to put in $25 preflop, but their unwillingness to raise. It is chock full of hands like QQ, JJ, TT, QJ, QT, JT, AQ, AJ, AT, Ax, Kx, Q9, J9, T9, 99, 98 (!), K9 (!).

    No draws that are likely to get there? Whaaaaaaat? The board pairs on the turn and you could be dead. Any A or K counterfeits you. 9 or 8 also complete other straight draws (BTW 3/4 of the deck can give someone a flush draw.) This is the reason you came to play poker - to make money on hands like this. In a word, this is an awful spot to slowplay.

    Now on the turn we don't even know if the preflop raiser is the opponent who just bet into you! Here is the flush draw we just talked about BTW. Anyway you should just shove if you're going to raise. He just bet into 5 people with something (a raw bluff would not be a good idea into 5 people on that board.) Of course he might know you have AK, but he should know that by your raise anyway. He's playing against a raise to $130 the same way he's playing against $175. We know he doesn't have AK and very unlikely K9. He could have TT, JJ, he could have a combo hand like :AH::JH:, :AH::9H:, :KH::JH:, :JH::TH:, :TH::9H: , :9H::8H: By the river one of these latter seems more likely.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    Eurocrat wrote: »
    Sorry 4 callers. 5 to see the flop including myself.


    flopping the stone nuts at that point on a rainbow board with no draws that are likely to get there was my reasoning. Wanted some medium strength hands to get there on the turn for value.

    When considering to slowplay, another thing to consider is how likely the board is going to change in a way that it kills your action. In most cases, I don't like to slowplay a straight on a 1-2-3 board for that reason. If there is K coming, you're not getting value from anyone and will have to split with Ax that is out there.

    If we're basing our plan on how likely the board is to change via a turned K, it's probably worth noting that when we hold a K that probability is 6%. However, I still don't like a check here.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Suicideking1_Suicideking1_ Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    wow lots of insight here.

    Im really seeing things a lot differently..
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    If betting large is perceived as weakness, I think this further simplifies your flop decision.

    This is a Great point. I would have gotten a lot of value anyway.
  • Suicideking1_Suicideking1_ Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    BigFudge wrote: »
    Agree with Kat. In a loose game (either aggressive or passive) no need to slow play the nuts and especially when the flop hits all ranges. All you are doing is losing streets of value. In a particularly LAGgy game I might bet small if I think it might induce a bluff but I’m betting something for sure. General rule I probably pot this flop on this table...

    On the turn it’s interesting that V didn’t just push the rest in. I guess otherwise I agree with the raise the sizing is about right with other opponents still to act (not sure if there was anybody in the UTG/SB/BB), however if you were last to act I’d raise enough to get his stack in. Again though, if you bet the flop and the pot was bigger on the turn he probably bets bigger and then you can raise enough to get his stack in either way.

    On the river I just don’t understand the question...it doesn’t matter what he has. Sure he could have backed into a flush but he also could have just been calling with a ton of two pair and even some set combos or busted combo draws (pair with straight draw). I never fold this for $45. I call and find out what he has. Please tell me you didn’t fold this...





    NO I defintly did not fold on the river. In conclusion he was holding 97 of hearts and hit a back door flush on me. and had the losing end of a straight draw. I was a 95 percent favorite on the flop!!!!
  • Suicideking1_Suicideking1_ Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    I agree with most of what's written so far. You left off some information so I'm going on the assumption that you're not necessarily thinking about all the right things in this game.

    You don't specify what "everyone" means (i.e. how many people are in your game.) You also didn't say exactly what "EP" means. These are good to know for preflop raise sizing etc. I'll assume this is a 9 handed game and EP means UTG+1 (although this doesn't make much sense either because you described UTG+1 later, but what can I do.) You also don't mention the suits of your cards (we need to know where the :AH: and :KH: are.)

    So EP raised and 4 people called. This is a tiny "pot builder" raise, and people are coming in with a very wide range. By the way, this particular hand is very passive, not "extremely aggressive" - you didn't say if this hand was unusual or not so I don't know if you know what aggressive means or if this was just an unusual hand. This is important to know for hand ranging.

    You have AK and obviously you are going to raise, to how much is the question. The pot is $25, so a pot sized raise would be the minimum I would do, and that would be putting $35 out there. You could also consider putting $50 out there. You should consider what kind of hand you have and what kind of hand you're likely to flop, which is top pair/top kicker. If you get 1 or 2 callers at $50, this sets up a perfect SPR and shove amount on the flop. You are obviously going to shove if you hit, but you can also shove if you miss as well since most likely your opponent also missed and you still have the best hand, and usually 6 outs if you don't.

    So that opportunity is passed, and now we end up getting extremely lucky and flopping the nuts. Unfortunately you passed on this opportunity as well, and that opportunity is a flop that gives you the nuts, but also gives lots of other people good hands they can call with. This hand is just crawling with hands that your opponents would have hit, given their willingness to put in $25 preflop, but their unwillingness to raise. It is chock full of hands like QQ, JJ, TT, QJ, QT, JT, AQ, AJ, AT, Ax, Kx, Q9, J9, T9, 99, 98 (!), K9 (!).

    No draws that are likely to get there? Whaaaaaaat? The board pairs on the turn and you could be dead. Any A or K counterfeits you. 9 or 8 also complete other straight draws (BTW 3/4 of the deck can give someone a flush draw.) This is the reason you came to play poker - to make money on hands like this. In a word, this is an awful spot to slowplay.

    Now on the turn we don't even know if the preflop raiser is the opponent who just bet into you! Here is the flush draw we just talked about BTW. Anyway you should just shove if you're going to raise. He just bet into 5 people with something (a raw bluff would not be a good idea into 5 people on that board.) Of course he might know you have AK, but he should know that by your raise anyway. He's playing against a raise to $130 the same way he's playing against $175. We know he doesn't have AK and very unlikely K9. He could have TT, JJ, he could have a combo hand like :AH::JH:, :AH::9H:, :KH::JH:, :JH::TH:, :TH::9H: , :9H::8H: By the river one of these latter seems more likely.

    Your whole post is very informative. One thing that Im not seeing correctly in my bet sizing.

    Your right about my preflop 3 bet being not as aggresive as I thought it was in comparision to the pot. MY thinking is that Im raising 5x from the initial raiser BUT with all the callers Im still only raising to the size of the pot.

    Also I did not hold the :AH: or :KH: in my hand.

    Youre right about all the hands that would call that flop too. A lot of hands that would call while being behind or drawing to a chop and I see that now a lot easier. And also didn't realize all of the bad turn cards for me. When the heart came out I knew that I had to defend my now vulnerable straight.

    Moral of the story is that Villian called my re raise with :9H::7H: and hit his backdoor flush.

    I did give him the oppurtunity to make the wrong call and he did as I was still a 80% favorite on the turn and he hit the suckout.

    Thank you for the really informative response!!!

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did give him the oppurtunity to make the wrong call and he did as I was still a 80% favorite on the turn and he hit the suckout.

    Yup, one of the keys to poker is to put in more money when you're the ahead/the favorite, and put in less money when you're behind. Just get that last $45 in before the river next time and you'll be all set.

  • Suicideking1_Suicideking1_ Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    edited March 5
    I know! I thought the 130 was a good amount to put him to a hard decision.
  • Suicideking1_Suicideking1_ Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    edited March 9
    :QH::JS::TS:
    jeffnc wrote: »
    I agree with most of what's written so far. You left off some information so I'm going on the assumption that you're not necessarily thinking about all the right things in this game.

    You don't specify what "everyone" means (i.e. how many people are in your game.) You also didn't say exactly what "EP" means. These are good to know for preflop raise sizing etc. I'll assume this is a 9 handed game and EP means UTG+1 (although this doesn't make much sense either because you described UTG+1 later, but what can I do.) You also don't mention the suits of your cards (we need to know where the :AH: and :KH: are.)

    So EP raised and 4 people called. This is a tiny "pot builder" raise, and people are coming in with a very wide range. By the way, this particular hand is very passive, not "extremely aggressive" - you didn't say if this hand was unusual or not so I don't know if you know what aggressive means or if this was just an unusual hand. This is important to know for hand ranging.

    You have AK and obviously you are going to raise, to how much is the question. The pot is $25, so a pot sized raise would be the minimum I would do, and that would be putting $35 out there. You could also consider putting $50 out there. You should consider what kind of hand you have and what kind of hand you're likely to flop, which is top pair/top kicker. If you get 1 or 2 callers at $50, this sets up a perfect SPR and shove amount on the flop. You are obviously going to shove if you hit, but you can also shove if you miss as well since most likely your opponent also missed and you still have the best hand, and usually 6 outs if you don't.

    So that opportunity is passed, and now we end up getting extremely lucky and flopping the nuts. Unfortunately you passed on this opportunity as well, and that opportunity is a flop that gives you the nuts, but also gives lots of other people good hands they can call with. This hand is just crawling with hands that your opponents would have hit, given their willingness to put in $25 preflop, but their unwillingness to raise. It is chock full of hands like QQ, JJ, TT, QJ, QT, JT, AQ, AJ, AT, Ax, Kx, Q9, J9, T9, 99, 98 (!), K9 (!).

    No draws that are likely to get there? Whaaaaaaat? The board pairs on the turn and you could be dead. Any A or K counterfeits you. 9 or 8 also complete other straight draws (BTW 3/4 of the deck can give someone a flush draw.) This is the reason you came to play poker - to make money on hands like this. In a word, this is an awful spot to slowplay.

    Now on the turn we don't even know if the preflop raiser is the opponent who just bet into you! Here is the flush draw we just talked about BTW. Anyway you should just shove if you're going to raise. He just bet into 5 people with something (a raw bluff would not be a good idea into 5 people on that board.) Of course he might know you have AK, but he should know that by your raise anyway. He's playing against a raise to $130 the same way he's playing against $175. We know he doesn't have AK and very unlikely K9. He could have TT, JJ, he could have a combo hand like :AH::JH:, :AH::9H:, :KH::JH:, :JH::TH:, :TH::9H: , :9H::8H: By the river one of these latter seems more likely.

    Your whole post is very informative. One thing that Im not seeing correctly in my bet sizing.

    Your right about my preflop 3 bet being not as aggresive as I thought it was in comparision to the pot. MY thinking is that Im raising 5x from the initial raiser BUT with all the callers Im still only raising to the size of the pot.

    Also I did not hold the :AH: or :KH: in my hand.

    Youre right about all the hands that would call that flop too. A lot of hands that would call while being behind or drawing to a chop and I see that now a lot easier. And also didn't realize all of the bad turn cards for me. When the heart came out I knew that I had to defend my now vulnerable straight.

    Moral of the story is that Villian called my re raise with :9H::7H: and hit his backdoor flush.

    I did give him the oppurtunity to make the wrong call and he did as I was still a 80% favorite on the turn and he hit the suckout.

    Thank you for the really informative response!!!

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file