Ranges. What starting ranges should i put unstudied players on?

1AMPOKER_1AMPOKER_ Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
I play at Boulder Station in Las Vegas (It's close to home and free parking). This game is filled with unstudied players who ignore odds, ranges, basically, everything taught on this site. My question is: how do you apply what's taught here against players who have been playing 30 years and no nothing of actual strategy? For context, I offer a hand: The table is passive and has been since we started an hour ago. Most pots are limped preflop, bet somewhere in the $15-$20 range, called by one other player, and taken down with another $15-$20 bet on the turn. My image is tight, very. I play only the top 15% of hands from early position (everything but CO and BTN) and 20% of hands from CO, BTN, and Blinds. I get aggressive with these hands always raising limped pots to $12-$20. I was in the Co when I picked up aces. As predicted, everyone limped and I raised to $22. I got one caller. $47 in the pot. Flop: JhJd8c. Villain, who was UTG, checked. I lead for $25. He calls. Turn was a Qd. He checks. I fire $75 into a $90 pot. He calls. Turn was a 10c. He pushes all in. I had QT in his range. His push was for $100 more. $340 in pot so I'm getting 3.4:1 on my call. I make the call and he turns over Q9o. Now, I played +EV poker the whole way and he played that hand terribly! I'm glad! But how does one play the strategies taught here against people who have no idea what you're doing? Everyone at that table knew I had aces and he said that even he knew it but "felt" like he would get there. Lol. Any advice?

Best Answers

  • 1AMPOKER_1AMPOKER_ Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    GameKat, it is still 10-handed. I'm using Ed Miller's advice from the $1/$2 series on this site. He says that EP is everything but Co, btn, and blinds preflop. So, with that in mind, what percentages do you recommend based on this game that's likely not changed since you played?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    Accepted Answer
    1AMPOKER_ wrote: »
    GameKat, it is still 10-handed. I'm using Ed Miller's advice from the $1/$2 series on this site. He says that EP is everything but Co, btn, and blinds preflop. So, with that in mind, what percentages do you recommend based on this game that's likely not changed since you played?

    This is getting weird. All week you guys have been bringing up questions on topics for which we currently have material in production.

    So, pretty sure Ed's CO/BTN ranges are quite a bit wider than the 20% you mentioned you use above. So take another look at them.

    Ed's idea of using the same range for the first non-CO/BTN positions is one based on convenience and simplicity. The specific range he uses is certainly playable, and I even know people who go wider profitably from up front. But in a ten-handed game from EP with multiple short-stacks it is, IMO, way too loose. I would recommend trimming out the suited connectors and small pairs as a start.

    And as indicated, watch this space for more detailed info on this topic.
  • RussRuss Red Chipper Posts: 139 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    1AMPOKER_ wrote: »
    Russ, I have just recently started keeping up with stats while playing live. It's a lot. I think I may need to concentrate on specific things. What do you recommend?

    I would start especially with the PF VPIP, both your opponents and your own. Sounds like you're doing that for yourself, to keep yourself in line an certain positions. You don't need an exact VPIP for your opponents, just a sense.

    The next thing that I personally keep track of is my own CBet tendencies, making sure I have a good CB'ing plan, and that includes my sizings. If/when I have a good handle on that, I try to notice my opponents' CBet and (occasionally) their 3betting proclivities. I doubt you'll see much 3betting in that game.

    Honestly, at that game and stakes, if you have a good handle on those "stats," you're going to be a winner. Those unstudied players will be easy to exploit.
  • ROI RUINERROI RUINER Red Chipper Posts: 214 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    I don’t know the relevance of it but in “The Course” in the video Board Textures there is a reference about a 40% range. I think a loose game would have a lot of that range. People want to see if their J7s can make a straight or flush along with T9o and K2s can make the second nut flush etc etc.

    This is how these players think. They came to gamble and want to win pots with no thought of the long term.

    I play on a regulated US online site which plays like a live game and when I’m up against someone with a 60% VPIP and low AF I make some big folds and I don’t even bother putting them on a range in game. If the board has anything that could have me beat I just fold. I only start thinking in ranges when I am up against a good reg. I will review hands and do range analysis for the practice but I focus more on their actions while playing.
  • karbynkarbyn Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    I imagine I’d they’re unstudied that they “didn’t come to fold”. Hence something in a limped or a 1 raise pot: injea241vicj.jpeg, prob more in LP.

Answers

  • 1AMPOKER_1AMPOKER_ Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    Excellent advice guys! Seriously, thanks! Especially for the range chart.
  • 1AMPOKER_1AMPOKER_ Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    Russ, I have just recently started keeping up with stats while playing live. It's a lot. I think I may need to concentrate on specific things. What do you recommend?
  • 1AMPOKER_1AMPOKER_ Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 27 ✭✭
    Persuadeo, that was an excellent breakdown. And no, I haven't thought of it that way. I have gotten nothing but great advice from you guys since I made this post and it has certainly made me look at my game differently. I will make these adjustments (because it's foolish not to listen to great advice) and revisit the $1/$2 crash course. Thanks again.
  • RussRuss Red Chipper Posts: 139 ✭✭
    edited March 2
    @persuadeo I don't understand why people wouldn't want to hear what you posted. Why are they here? I hope you don't let that minority dissuade you from posting.
  • RussRuss Red Chipper Posts: 139 ✭✭
    1AMPOKER_ wrote: »
    I played +EV poker the whole way and he played that hand terribly!

    I really would question this part also. If this was your first hand with your opponent, maybe a 40% range isn't expected, although you say you are familiar with the game, so it probably should be. Once that board flops, you've got some equity, but range vs range (or vs AA) this is a terrible flop. As Pesuadeo points out, you CB large, which sets up failure in the rest of the hand. When the Q turn comes, your equity goes into the crapper, same with the river, yet you continue to bet big. In general, for you to have low equity in a hand but still be +EV, the bet has to be small compared to the money in the pot. You're not there.

    Check this out:
    http://www.thepokerbank.com/articles/strategy/equity-ev-difference/

    I recommend you invest in Flopzilla and GTO+. If you buy a license for both, it will cost you $100, which is 1/2 of what you lost in this hand. Well worth the investment, if you actually use them.

    Here's a screen shot I grabbed from GTO+
    o33rav29qrdc.png

    GTO+ hated your CBet, and it really hated the opponent's call of the gutshot, but hey, that's what fish do, right? But when that Q hits the turn, it's all over. You should have been -$22 for the hand, not -$200.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Russ wrote: »
    @persuadeo I don't understand why people wouldn't want to hear what you posted. Why are they here?

    When he takes so much time to spell things out it such as in this post, it's much more valuable. I'd rather read one of his longer posts every 10 hands, than something very short and coy on every post. I understand what he's getting at with his more coy posts, but IMO those are more suited to private coaching or private group chats than this sort of public hand history format. People end up not getting it in the short term and get more irritated than motivated to figure it out on their own. IMO now that the OP is interested and understands some of it, he's more likely to figure out the next one on his own.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Regarding the large raises sizes we see on this forum and in live games, theoretically they're too big. But I also feel you have to exploit, and if you're playing really tight and they still call $22 with Q9 when you have aces, well it's kind of hard to argue with inducing that sort of (preflop) mistake. Of course you need to be aware of how this changes the effective stack sizes at each point in the hand (it lowers it) and how that affects the types of cards you should be playing.

    To @1AMPOKER_ , to me the fact that you're not mentioning stack sizes to begin with makes me wonder if you're taking it into account correctly while playing, Also I really don't want to spend my time figuring it out on my own when I read your post. At one point you called it a $90 pot but it was a $97 pot. I can figure out by adding things up that villain had $222 to start. You don't say how much you have. I have to assume you had him covered or else you wouldn't have been talking about your full odds to call. Some details matter, some don't, but you need to be aware of all of them at least.

    On the river you really shouldn't be calling (it's unlikely he thinks QT beats AA), but you really shouldn't be bombing it the whole way either. By making smaller bets, or checking a street, your opponent still makes the same mistakes (admittedly not as bad) but you get more of an appropriate value for your hand rank (1 pair) without losing your stack when you're beat. You can also call smaller bets by your opponent without getting exploited. I see this happening all the time.

    Example, you bet $50 into a $100 pot with the best hand and your opponent has only a flush draw. On the river the flush comes, you check, and he bets $50 into $200 "to make sure he gets called" because it looks obvious he made the flush. You can call this bet (even though you might fold if he's completely transparent) because no matter how many times you play this game all night, he's going to lose. Calling with 2:1 on a flush draw and then only betting enough to make it 3:1 with implied odds is just stupid. He needs to bet a bare minimum $100 on the river just to break even.

    Your opponent basically made the same mistake on the flop, but did you know what he had? How many hands in his range can he call a bet this big with that don't beat you? Possibly more than we might have thought, but still...... very few of his hands that you beat have many outs. You don't need to bet much to protect against gutshots, especially when they're going to tell you when they hit it and you're not very exploitable by bluffs. You also don't have to bet every street.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To answer the question in your post, you figure out what they have based more on how they're betting than on what range they have. Making ranges and calculating equities and pot odds and figuring out if you should call against that range is moot against weaker, more passive players. For example if they move all in, you don't really care what "range" they have except that their range is "3 of a kind, straights, and full houses." How they made it, god only knows. While a lot of players don't literally play "any two", they can have any two because they will play some combination that includes suited or connected cards that contain the key cards they need. They can always have trips because of connectors and suited aces, among other things.
  • BigFudgeBigFudge Red Chipper Posts: 35 ✭✭
    Russ wrote: »
    @persuadeo I don't understand why people wouldn't want to hear what you posted. Why are they here? I hope you don't let that minority dissuade you from posting.

    Completely agree. That is some excellent advice and quite honesty if you post a hand history it usually means that you are somewhat unsure of how you played it. Criticism should be expected and thanked. It takes no time at all to simply post “nice hand”, but to dig in and run through a solid review as persuaded did takes time and he should be thanked for it, even if you disagree that’s what follow up questions are about.

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