JJ in the small blind

NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
Hero $298
V1 UTG +1 ~$140
V2 Cutoff ~$800

V1 Opens for $12 and Cutoff calls. Everyone else folds and I have :Jd:Js and 3 bet to $35. Both players call.

Flop($105) :5s:6s:7c

I cbet $40

V1 one Jams and then V2 jams.

Hero? My first thought is that this is a fold. Usually, when 2 players are putting their whole stacks in then you are beaten. But what are they jamming here? If they had a made hand then why jam and risk folding everyone else out?

I had no live reads on the players but have played in this room before and played earlier in the day and these players love to gamble and put money in the pot. Just because they shove it does not mean they have it.

I did some analysis of this hand already but want thoughts first. Unless you want me to put up what I did first?

Thoughts?

Thanks

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    edited March 5
    I'd 3-bet bigger pre. Possibly just flat. Easy fold to the twin jam.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • WassenaarWassenaar Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    edited March 5
    For sure bigger pre. This small bet will generate a lot of preflop calls as V1 (based upon common tendencies) are likely calling a great chunk of the time given a decent price and the fact that the CO is continuing with the attracting price as well. $40-$50 maybe... The problem is V1 stack size if he decides to raise 4bet (any thoughts @TheGameKat ?)

    V1 should probably jam or fold his entire range from sets, overpairs and draws. Same goes for the cutoff as the board is extremely dynamic and there are simply not deep enough stacks to slowplay. I'm folding to this shove as well, expecting to see a variation of made hands and draws. You holding Jc will also block out a few of the possible flush combos from their range.

    Also, include what stakes are being played and include the blinds in the pot going into the flop.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    Shoot sorry. It was 1/3 and I was in the SB
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    Wassenaar wrote: »
    For sure bigger pre. This small bet will generate a lot of preflop calls as V1 (based upon common tendencies) are likely calling a great chunk of the time given a decent price and the fact that the CO is continuing with the attracting price as well. $40-$50 maybe... The problem is V1 stack size if he decides to raise 4bet (any thoughts @TheGameKat ?)

    V1 should probably jam or fold his entire range from sets, overpairs and draws. Same goes for the cutoff as the board is extremely dynamic and there are simply not deep enough stacks to slowplay. I'm folding to this shove as well, expecting to see a variation of made hands and draws. You holding Jc will also block out a few of the possible flush combos from their range.

    Also, include what stakes are being played and include the blinds in the pot going into the flop.

    Given it's $1/$3 I'm happy to get it in against V1.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭✭
    This hand should not have 3bet against a UTG+1 opener.
    If you want to 3bet, then surely not so small but more around 50-60$.

    This hand is not to c-bet with: you block V's draws (esp. with :JS: ) and this board is really not one you connect with (do you 3bet like 77 often from SB?).
    As played it would be a call only against V1 (you're too committed to fold), but once V2 jam it's an easy fold (he hits the board often, you don't)
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5
    Agree with the larger size preflop raise if raising, probably min $50. (To the OP - how could we guess you were in the SB? You said "everyone else" folded after the CO.)

    To be fair, if you have a big pocket pair you're not looking to "connect" with the board (other then flopping an overpair), and second this board is very wet and dynamic, so villains could have anything. Not saying you should be calling here, not even saying you should c-bet, just saying failure to "connect" is not a reason to avoid c-betting in general. Most ideas involved with "connecting" with a certain range revolve around having a lot of chips to play, not really low SPRs and overpairs.

    Finally, you're not doing any blocking of draws here with JJ in general. As far as "especially" Js, I would say there's no real difference in how this hand would go down whether you had the Js in your hand or not. The action tells the story, and there are so many more combos here than just flush draws in play that the effect is extremely diluted IMO.

    88, 77, 66, 55, 44, 76, 65, 75, 87, 54, 43, 64, 86, 98, 99, TT, QQ. Then many and sundry flush draws not involving Js. The fact that you have a backdoor flush draw yourself might have more significance than the Js blocking opponent combos IMO (saying you shouldn't call or fold based on that.)
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    Thanks all for your input.

    I figured the 3 bet sizing was too small. I typically do a 3x sizing when 3 betting but I believe OOP should be larger sizing correct?

    As for the flop play my first instinct was to fold to the all ins. My instinct was that it was the correct play. Then I thought about it some more and decided what is shoving that is beating me right now. The only thing I could think of was sets and maybe an overpair from V1.

    For that reason, I decided to gamble. Like I said earlier these tables play very loose and the vibe I got from V2 was that he was just trying to push his stack around. Of course, only being a few hands in I could have been way wrong.

    Before posting my original post I put the hand through poker tracker and whittled the 2 Vs down to final ranges. I came up as 40% which would be a plus EV of about $60 I think. After posting I said crap, I forgot to filter out all non-spade suited hands. That brought the EV to -57 with these ranges.

    V1

    61iqkvq5yfu8.png


    V2

    qtaulza68c3p.png


    Do you all think this is a reasonable expectation of what they might have? Are they too narrow? I did not have any suited gappers in either range as I don't think V1 is opening with them and neither are going to call a 3 bet with them...maybe V2 though. I am not good enough to do this at the table so this is what I came up with at home.

    Thanks all


  • WassenaarWassenaar Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Do you all think this is a reasonable expectation of what they might have?

    Seems pretty close to what I would anticipate myself. But why are you including 87s, but excluding 98s, 76s, Ts9s, KsTs, QsTs? I would have those hands in both ranges as well if I were to believe they could have 87s, which I do.
  • NTD12NTD12 Red Chipper Posts: 107 ✭✭
    Wassenaar wrote: »
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Do you all think this is a reasonable expectation of what they might have?

    Seems pretty close to what I would anticipate myself. But why are you including 87s, but excluding 98s, 76s, Ts9s, KsTs, QsTs? I would have those hands in both ranges as well if I were to believe they could have 87s, which I do.

    Good point thank you. I think I excluded 89 as I didn't think they would shove a made hand. Pretty sure I dropped out the KT and QT as I didn't think they would call the 3bet?

    I think I'll rework the hand from the start again and take some screen shots of ranges during every action.

  • WassenaarWassenaar Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    edited March 7
    NTD12 wrote: »
    Pretty sure I dropped out the KT and QT as I didn't think they would call the 3bet?

    Nope, they probably shouldn't... But if they call 87s I think they're calling QTs as well. Based upon description in OP that wouldn't surprise me at all.

    dr1yzf1l3qsf.png

    I'm not really sure who of the V I had in mind making this, but it seems fair to assume it is going to be an estimate of the ranges you're up against.
  • accessdeniedx2accessdeniedx2 Red Chipper Posts: 61 ✭✭
    I would also include :Ks:Ts and :Qs:Ts also. If I'm last action and im calling with :8s:7s , then I'm calling with the other 2 hands.

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