BB Drama on the River

BigDaddyBigDaddy Red Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
While I’m on temporary sabbatical from playing live (no online where I live), I thought I’d post a hand from my last session before my official stoppage. I am going to post more hands while I am on hiatus. Going to make the most of this time away from the table, and I encourage others to do the same.
Typical late night $1/2 game, 9 handed. Villain bought in short and is in the CO with $121. I do not recognize villain and I play a lot. Villain has been at the table approximately one rotation. He recently joined the table after busting out of a tournament. He did not finish in the money, but he is proud he broke even on bounties. I mention this to say it has been my experience that tourney players will frequently join $1/2 games after they bust out to take advantage of “stupid low stakes players”. Villain has been living up to the hype, playing passive PF but playing aggressively on the turn/river forcing folds. He has not shown down hands yet, but I’m getting the impression he is running over people.
I am in the BB with about $300. I have villain covered, but have not played many hands since he sat down.
EP and MP limp, CO (Villain) limps, BU limps, SB calls. I check with

:9s:7c

Pot $12.

Flop :9c:8s:2c

I have top pair, diarrhea kicker (with blockers though) on a draw heavy board. Not going to try and range five other players who limped, except to say they probably had me beat PF, but now I am ahead of most, if not all. My plan is to bet, and if I meet any resistance whatsoever, fold. I’m concerned about a bigger 9 and the draws, but they have to be concerned as well because I got to check the BB. For all they know, I woke up with a hand that hit or a draw.
Hero bets $12. Two folds, CO calls, sb folds. Pot $36.
Eff stacks $107. With only a call on a draw heavy board, I’m ranging Villain on a 9 or a FD and/or OESD, leaning towards the draws. OESD candidates include JT, and 67. Maybe limped with T7s, long shot? Also could have pair and a draw. I believe villain raises with sets, two pairs, or even a “big” 9 against the BB. A9 for sure, maybe K9? Overall, I think I’m coin flip I think between villain having a 9 he doesn’t raise with or a draw.

Turn :3d

A good card for me. I am aware that If I bet, I’m tied to the hand if the CO shoves, and I’m OK with that.
Hero bets $25, CO only calls. Total pot $86.

River :Qd

I check. Villain shoves for $80☹ I am getting roughly 2:1 to make the call. America’s fav hand, JTs as well as his off-suit cousins got there, 16 combos. 67 missed, 12 combos. Any other funky SD missed, as did all the FD draws, more than 20 draws total? More draws missed than hit, but could I also be up against a bigger 9? Two pair? :Qc:8c ?

Hero? Feedback on all streets welcome, have at it.

Comments

  • kytmagickytmagic Red Chipper Posts: 204 ✭✭
    Thought it was played fine. I don't think you're committed on the turn if he shoves. I would probably bet the turn smaller.
  • In The DarkIn The Dark Red Chipper Posts: 241 ✭✭✭
    If he shoves turn you're committed. Why is the river shove any different?
  • BigDaddyBigDaddy Red Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
    @In The Dark, in real time, Villain has more information on the river, but you are right. A turn bet would most likely be a semi bluff, and I'm ahead 53% vs. 45% assigning Villain a 31% PF limping range.
  • karbynkarbyn Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    6 way, and OOP to 4, I would not be leading here. I'd check, and sometimes this means it checks thru, but we don't want to bloat this pot OOP, we want to get to showdown. We should consider a checkraise, ofc depending on action. If it checks thru, I'd bomb this turn, 1.5x-2x pot, and certainly bluff the river with a PSB
  • BigDaddyBigDaddy Red Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
    @Karbyn:
    After reviewing this hand at home, I totally get what you are saying (and others btw…). Bloating this pot with this weak hand OOP was a bad idea. But live, I couldn’t get out of my head that while my hand was terrible PF, I probably had the best hand post flop with all these limpers (at least that’s what my flopzilla work has been telling me). I’m not sure playing check/call all the way down gets me to the river cheaper. Plus, I could be checking and giving free cards on a drawy board. Villain being short stacked made the river decision interesting/easier.
  • grouse2417grouse2417 Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    Hey @BigDaddy thanks for sharing the hand. Just to give a little back ground on my biases before I share my thoughts. I've been tracking all my live sessions since October of 2018, and I have modest (but consistent) win rates at 1/2 and 2/5. That being said, my game still needs A TON of work, which is why I'm here :) I definitely lean more towards calling in tricky river spots (I'm not a complete station though!), and am probably more apt to make calling mistakes than folding mistakes, so just be aware of that when I share my thoughts. First of all this is by no means a slam dunk spot either way, so I don't think folding or calling would be a too much of a mistake either way.

    1) You mentioned that this guy is a tournament player, and, in your own analysis, get the sense that he is very capable of making moves post flop and has been running over the table, so in my mind that is more reason why a call on the river is ok.
    2) After going through the Level 2 postflop course in Core, I think your flop lead is ok too. As we learn, protection is much more important multiway and especially with a hand like top pair. I would probably also lead my strongest draws like OESD with overs, nut flush draws etc, but 9x would be the bottom of my value / protection leading range. Yes, we will value own ourselves sometimes, but like you said, it's going to be hard to get to showdown cheaply when we check, and if we give a free card to 5 ranges and an overcard comes on the turn (save a T that gives us an OESD) we almost NEVER win this pot. Good players will also not raise you often unless they are pretty nutted (or have strong draws), because your big blind checking range pre-flop can contain (22, 98, 92, 82, etc.) Also since this is a limped pot, I just would not be worried about an overpair to our 9, even in a passive 1/2 game, I'd imagine almost everyone is raising TT+ pre. I think the EV of a hand like 97 from the BB goes up when we lead top pair, even into multiple opponents, and the amount of times we lose to a better value hand or draw that hits, is probably less significant than the value lost by not betting for protection on the flop, or by calling bets without the initiative. When bets are going in on multiple streets, this also helps us range and hand read, which is already tough at 1/2, especially in limped pots!
    3) Given that I like your flop lead, the full pot sized bet seems a little large to me with your exact hand. I really like that size with your 2 pair+ or A9 and perhaps your strongest draws that will have good equity when you are called and are behind. My concern with you going full pot with 97 is that players will only give you action with draws and their value that beats you. I think if you bet $7-$8ish here you are still going to get all the folds from the junky overcard hands we want to fold out for protection, and we may even get some 8x or inferior draws to call. Most importantly, we are going to keep the pot a little SMALLER when we are behind. You obviously have a better feel for this game, outside of the main villian, so if $7 or $8 is not going to fold out naked over cards, full pot may be superior, but I would size down exploitatively with 97 exactly.
    4) Don't have strong feelings on your turn bet. 2/3 pot seems totally fine to me on a blank, but I have no idea what is optimal there.
    5) When facing the shove (using your sizings) I am probably going to call the river against this player. Something I had to learn is that you can make the "correct" call and still get shown the winning hand.
    6) The truth is that the optimal river play is probably calling at a mixed frequency, and if you want some extra things to tip the scales, look at your blockers. If you want to find a fold, having the 7c might be slightly better to fold, whereas having 7d might make this a call. Also consider if you had J9 (no club) on this same run out. 97 and J9 are essentially the same hand when he polarizes river (ie I don't think he's shoving T9) but the J9 is far superior to call because it blocks the straights that got there and unblocks the ones that missed.
    7) Another question is do you think he's shoving his 1 pair Qx hands he gets here with for value? If not, another reason to call.

    As played, I am probably calling river against this player (and I'd get shown the JT lol). I would have chosen a smaller flop sizing, but I would have bet flop and turn as you did. I don't think betting river makes sense, and I'm probably going to call river when he polarizes. Ironically, my smaller flop bet would give me worse odds on the river call, assuming he still opts to shove, but he may have extra bluffs in there that would have folded on the flop to the full pot bet (weak flush draws for example) but who knows.

    What ended up happening in the hand?

  • BigDaddyBigDaddy Red Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
    I call the river shove. In real time, I realize JT got there, but there are other straight draws that missed, as well as the flush draws. That’s the weird thing about this hand; lots of scary cards could hit, which still mean lots of draws missed. I think I find a fold if the river was a club that also filled up a straight. The key aspect that hit me off the table was the fact that Villain started the hand short stacked and his river shove was only pot- sized. If he had a full buy in, that shove could have been for 160, which means a call is strictly a bluff read IMO.
    Villain shows :5h:6h
    a busted non- FD gutter? For once, my read of villain as bully was correct.
  • BigDaddyBigDaddy Red Chipper Posts: 70 ✭✭
    Forgot to mention I got the pleasure of listening to mumbling about how could I call with that hand, etc while the Villain went to the cage to re-buy.
  • grouse2417grouse2417 Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    @BigDaddy how do you make your post a "spoiler"?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    edited March 22
    @grouse2417

    jsachqkc5n35.png


    Note text scribbled over to avoid spoiling the spoiler.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If he shoves turn you're committed. Why is the river shove any different?

    On the river all semi-bluffs are removed from his range.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 22
    I have the feeling villain would have done this on any card that completed his draw, or any club, or any Q or 7. He probably would not do it if he paired one of his cards as that might win, although a 5 would have been an interesting card. Those are a lot of combined outs if you look at it that way.

    Which gets back to the playability of the hand to begin with. Honestly I'm usually just going to check/fold this hand unless I get to a cheap showdown and a small pot against one player with some reads. Yes, you might well be ahead now but it's not really a hand that I think deserves protecting as it doesn't have much value.

    As played, I call the river. If a player grumbles about my call, I usually say something like "I'll make a deal with you - if you stop bluffing, I'll stop calling."
  • grouse2417grouse2417 Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    @BigDaddy Can't believe he floated your pot sized flop bet with :5h:6h with 2 hands behind him! Doesn't sound like a very good player, or maybe he's just really off his game.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file