RCP Study Group - Donk Flop hand

cxy123

this is a hand from our study group.

6 Handed

Button (95 BB) opens 3BB
SB (116 BB) calls
BB (116 BB) calls

3 way to Flop. 9BB in pot (8.5BB after play money rake lol)
FLOP

SB checks
BB donks 4.25BB (1/2 pot)
Button folds
SB calls

Heads up to Turn 16.5BB in pot
Turn:
Board:

SB checks
BB bets 10BB (60% pot)
SB calls

River 36BB in pot
River
Board

SB Checks
BB ?

Thoughts on the flop donk bet?
I am the BB. Personally I am betting a good flop. Middle pair plus 2nd nut flush, if I get raised I have equity. I maybe take it down sometimes which is fine. But I really want to start building a pot now.

Turn: I think I like my bet still, I may get some value from a bunch of hands that can be drawing still.

River - do we take showdown value with 8 or turn our hand into a bluff here? I think there are some 8x hands and busted hearts that we beat. I dont know what better folds, maybe 99, not sure if JJ is in this range from SB.

Spoiler:

I checked, SB wins.
SB
Btn AQo

Ninjah

I'd prefer a x/r here. We have a Kx blocker, solid equity, and plenty of nutted combos given the price we received from the BB. Leading gets murky when we get flatted by the player in position.

BFSkinner

I don't ever think a K is folding to a bet here and you block hearts.

I think betting here only costs you money and you are ahead of his drawing range that folds anyway.

JoeOffsuit

Ninjah wrote: »

I'd prefer a x/r here. We have a Kx blocker, solid equity, and plenty of nutted combos given the price we received from the BB. Leading gets murky when we get flatted by the player in position.

I also like to check raise many flops when I have pair + flush draw (with 2 suits in my hand and 2 on the board) in early position However when its a weak pair and weak flush draw, I know that @porter and others prefer either betting out or check calling, and hate check-raising. Paging Porter to see if he still checks this board.

persuadeo

JoeOffsuit wrote: »

Ninjah wrote: »

I'd prefer a x/r here. We have a Kx blocker, solid equity, and plenty of nutted combos given the price we received from the BB. Leading gets murky when we get flatted by the player in position.

I also like to check raise many flops when I have pair + flush draw (with 2 suits in my hand and 2 on the board) in early position However when its a weak pair and weak flush draw, I know that @porter and others prefer either betting out or check calling, and hate check-raising. Paging Porter to see if he still checks this board.

Of course he's going to check. Leading merged is awful as a default.

kenaces

cxy123 wrote: »

Thoughts on the flop donk bet?
I am the BB. Personally I am betting a good flop. Middle pair plus 2nd nut flush, if I get raised I have equity. I maybe take it down sometimes which is fine. But I really want to start building a pot now.

Turn: I think I like my bet still, I may get some value from a bunch of hands that can be drawing still.

River - do we take showdown value with 8 or turn our hand into a bluff here? I think there are some 8x hands and busted hearts that we beat. I dont know what better folds, maybe 99, not sure if JJ is in this range from SB.

Don't donk - it is called a donk bet for a reason:) Slight disclaimer there are some spots when it can make sense but this KXX flop isn't one of them.

Think of it this way the BTN raiser does pretty well on KXX, and will likely CB decent amount. This should encourage you to go for XR and XC lines as you will make much more EV from the BTNs light CBs(air/weak hands that will just fold to your donk)

If the opposite conditions are true you can sometimes have a donking range. That is when you have range advantage and the PFR is unlikely to CB a high frequency.

JoeOffsuit

persuadeo wrote: »

Of course he's going to check. Leading merged is awful as a default.

check-call or check-raise?

persuadeo

XC is easily preferable, when you fit this hand into its categorization.

Ninjah

persuadeo wrote: »

XC is easily preferable, when you fit this hand into its categorization.

Is this due to the formation or the disconnected flop, or both? My guess is that the flop being disconnected should move us away from the polarization of a x/r.

persuadeo

Ninjah wrote: »

persuadeo wrote: »

XC is easily preferable, when you fit this hand into its categorization.

Is this due to the formation or the disconnected flop, or both? My guess is that the flop being disconnected should move us away from the polarization of a x/r.

I should't be so definitive. We don't even know what size the cbet will be, which is probably going to inform the strategy.

Ninjah

persuadeo wrote: »

Ninjah wrote: »

persuadeo wrote: »

XC is easily preferable, when you fit this hand into its categorization.

Is this due to the formation or the disconnected flop, or both? My guess is that the flop being disconnected should move us away from the polarization of a x/r.

I should't be so definitive. We don't even know what size the cbet will be, which is probably going to inform the strategy.

Larger cbet = more incentive to x/r
Smaller cbet = more incentive to call

kenaces

Ninjah wrote: »

persuadeo wrote: »

Ninjah wrote: »

persuadeo wrote: »

XC is easily preferable, when you fit this hand into its categorization.

Is this due to the formation or the disconnected flop, or both? My guess is that the flop being disconnected should move us away from the polarization of a x/r.

I should't be so definitive. We don't even know what size the cbet will be, which is probably going to inform the strategy.

Larger cbet = more incentive to x/r
Smaller cbet = more incentive to call

In GTO solverland it is the opposite

kenaces

persuadeo wrote: »

XC is easily preferable, when you fit this hand into its categorization.

I haven't run a sim on this but I would be willing to bet in a HU BTNvBB model this combo would be mixing XR and XC.

persuadeo

kenaces wrote: »

persuadeo wrote: »

XC is easily preferable, when you fit this hand into its categorization.

I haven't run a sim on this but I would be willing to bet in a HU BTNvBB model this combo would be mixing XR and XC.

Very likely.

JoeOffsuit

I agree that "Check with intent to <Fold, Call, Raise>" is murky, because it usually assumes there will be a bet with bet size between around half pot to pot. So lets just assume that.

persuadeo wrote: »

XC is easily preferable, when you fit this hand into its categorization.

So if we decide the hand as merged it is XC. And XR becomes the worst of the 3 options.

And if we decide the hand as solid equity, then XR becomes the best of the 3 options, and pro advice.

So here we have middle pair, 2nd kicker, and 2nd nut flush draw. Where does this fall? When we have two suited cards flop pair + flush draw, and we are looking at our pair, kicker, and flush draw, how do we divide betweeen categories?

persuadeo

I don't think it's murky, and I'll explain. Why is KA saying the BU vs BB formation is mixed? Well the main reason is the BU's range is at the widest possible and so this hand skyrockets in value, meaning it can take or lay prices across multiple paths.

That's not the formation here. The SB has called, which is unnecessary and is concentrated to certain hand types, including broadways that don't necessarily want to be 4bet. (you hear this exact spot discussed on the Just Hands pod i was on, not conincidentally, Jack named KJ as a hand that fits this flatting decision.)

So when the SB is involved, when he really shouldn't be often, the value of this hand diminishes yet has both SDV, blocker qualities, and position. On top of all this, since you have better hands I would categorize the preference being to check call. I'm sure there's a counter argument but will take this side for the purposes of discussion.