Opening suited aces UTG in 6-max question

sundriedsundried Red Chipper Posts: 22 ✭✭
I'm a live player transitioning to online so I'm trying to readjust my ranges as I'm a rather tight live player who only loosens up to exploit. However, having a look at many recommended ranges from 888poker and Upswing, I keep seeing that they open any suited ace UTG. Intuitively to me this is a losing play as if you open low suited aces UTG you basically have to fold to any 3bet and many times you'll be outkicked against someone who defends their ATo/AJo/A9o etc. How come this is considered GTO optimal play?
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 4,047 -
    Are those sources claiming it's GTO?

    Suited aces have magical properties since they both contain the big blocker and can flop nut draws, but there's no reason to play that wide if you're not comfortable doing so. Our guidelines from that position are suited aces down to A9s with A4s and A5s thrown in.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RosyRosy Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    Opening suited aces may or may not be optimal, but it definitely adds board coverage to your opening range, along with the medium suited connectors. If you only open TT+, AQs+, AK (for example) it is not going to be very hard for someone who is paying attention to know how strong your holding isn't on a 678 rainbow flop.

    One reason I like opening wider in online 6max games is that I can open more frequently. Especially multi tabling, most of my opponents will release a marginal hand even in position vs a UTG open. Why bother playing QJo when they've got KQs on another table?

    And also, with 3 fewer players to act behind you, it's harder for someone to pick up a hand that can compete. I'm perfectly happy opening A9s UTG if I think there is a pretty reasonable chance I'll be playing against only the big blind.
  • sundriedsundried Red Chipper Posts: 22 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Are those sources claiming it's GTO?

    The 888poker one is. And yeah I might stick to letting them go. I usually call all 3bets with a hand I'm willing to open UTG unless the 3better is a mega nit and I'm not ready to leak chips with opening A2s.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,323 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think you're going down the wrong track in how to think about this. You'll want to defend a ratio of hands vs specific three bet ranges, and healthy minority of those suited aces should continue to fill out this range, including a few as bluffs. Folding all of them or defending all of them are both too extreme. You can reason this out based on price, the declining value of coverage as the SPR or position affects you, and how some suited aces are better than others.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    UTG 6max is effectively LJ. Opening all AXs from LJ may be somehow loose, yet not crazy either. (The loose side of TAG spectrum I'd say.)
    If playing live from LJ you don't open most of AXs, you're playing too tight imho

    Also how to react against a 3bet not only depends on your hand but also on Villain's range, stack depth, and position.
    Hence and as pointed out by Persuadeo, you will and want to give action with a consequent chunk of these AXs against a 3bet.
  • sundriedsundried Red Chipper Posts: 22 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    I think you're going down the wrong track in how to think about this. You'll want to defend a ratio of hands vs specific three bet ranges, and healthy minority of those suited aces should continue to fill out this range, including a few as bluffs. Folding all of them or defending all of them are both too extreme. You can reason this out based on price, the declining value of coverage as the SPR or position affects you, and how some suited aces are better than others.

    I can definitely see the merit in opening and calling from UTG against certain types of opponents. I should've mentioned I play zone so I'm folding every time currently. I am certainly going to keep experimenting however.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But you're not UTG
  • TonyGTonyG Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    Lots of good perspectives here on this spot. I too disagree that any suited ace should be part of your standard UTG opening range. Most of my strategy is based off of Peter Clarke's 'The Grinder's Manual', which was discussed in a Red Chip podcast and is an excellent first read for 6-max fundamentals. Peter recommends that the standard UTG opening range would include ATs (which is a similar recommendation as TheGameKat), and the remaining AXs hands are only opened from the HJ (or later). Peter of course also discusses dynamic adjustments that expand and contract this standard range, which is an equally important point. But my view as a starting point is ATs+.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭✭
    sundried wrote: »
    I'm a live player transitioning to online so I'm trying to readjust my ranges as I'm a rather tight live player who only loosens up to exploit. However, having a look at many recommended ranges from 888poker and Upswing, I keep seeing that they open any suited ace UTG. Intuitively to me this is a losing play as if you open low suited aces UTG you basically have to fold to any 3bet and many times you'll be outkicked against someone who defends their ATo/AJo/A9o etc. How come this is considered GTO optimal play?

    GTO preflop solutions(monker) and Snowie and large database analysis(of winning online players) all support opening AXs UTG in 6m games. They aren't super profitable hands so if you fold some of the weaker ones while you learn to play better it likely won't matter much.
  • Blank_Sniper1Blank_Sniper1 Red Chipper Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited June 5
    You have to polarize your ranges and those types of suited hands work well UG, also you can call a 3 bet if there are enough callers and or you are getting at least 20 to 1 implied odds as it is great hand multi way.

    If you play too tight UG you will be predictable and easy to play against, though of course you should have a tight range in general UG but you have to mix it up or you will not get action from observant players. Also it makes you a lot more difficult to set mine profitably as they never know if you have a hand that will continue for large bets. So not only does this give you more action it also gives you more protection.
    Table selection is important too for these types of tactics.

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