Math Preflop Workbook: page 70

Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
I hope this is the right section of the message board to put this in. I couldn't find a section devoted to the Math and Preflop Workbook.

I also want to preface this by saying that I play in a fairly small player pool of probably 25 or so regular players with others showing up occasionally. I'm concerned that my strategies have become too tailored for this group of players and I'm wanting to tune up my game before starting to play online.

I'm curious about the problem on pg. 70. It's a \$5/\$10 cash game. The BTN open-raises to \$25, the SB 3bets to \$90 total, and you 4bet to \$210 total from the BB. The question is which of the given ranges would you use.

AA-KK,AKo-AQo
OR
AA-JJ,AKs-AQs,AKo-AJo

The answer key says to use the first range, stating "It's difficult to extract value effectively with weaker holdings such as QQ/JJ when cold-4betting. Even holdings such as AKo/AQo should be considered mostly as semi-bluffs in this scenario rather than legit value hands. We prefer the cold 4bet with our offsuit broadways since they lack playability multiway (assuming we cold-call the 3bet instead)."

This seems way too tight to me. Button and SB should both have wide steal and resteal ranges. Checking some reasonable GTO range charts shows the ranges should be something like:

Button: AA-22,AKs-A2s,KQs-K2s,QJs-Q2s,JTs-J6s,T9s-T6s,98s-96s,87s-85s,76s-74s,65s-64s,54s-53s,43s,32s,AKo-A2o,KQo-K7o,QJo-Q8o,JTo-J8o,T9o-T8o,98o-97o,87o,76o

SB: AA-22,AKs-A2s,KQs-K9s,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s-86s,76s,65s,54s,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo,QJo

Flopzilla Pro says the second BB range has ~47% equity against the GTO chart ranges. Combine that with what is probably pretty good fold equity and it seems like even the wider range is a clear raise.

I would expect to win this pot preflop with a raise most of the time and almost every time to at least get the button to fold so I'm playing in position against just the SB.

What am I missing?

Cheers!
Tagged:

• Red Chipper Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭✭
Because you blindly put AA-JJ,AKs-AQs,AKo-AJo against the guessed ranges for SB and BU. But neither BU nor SB will continue will such wide ranges.
BU facing a 3bet then a cold 4bet (2 uncapped ranges) AND not closing the action will have to fold a great chunk of his range. Same for SB, OOP, who isn't going to give action with all his range - plus may react differently if BU fold, call or 5bet.

When they prefer the 1st range, it's because they don't expect V giving action with many/enough worst hands than you can bet JJ or AQs for "pure" value.
(Sure, you could then expand your bluff 4bet range as exploit, expecting both V to fold too often; but then you will have a too high 4bet frequency, notable, against which Villains can adapt and exploit you by 5betting for bluff more.)
• Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
Hi Red, thanks for replying. :)
Red wrote: »
But neither BU nor SB will continue will such wide ranges.

Agreed. Which, to me, is part of the attraction of raising. I feel I have a pretty good chance of winning the pot right there.

Are you saying that it would be more +EV to just call with the hands not in range 1 in order to try to extract value on later streets? I can certainly see that as a possibility, but what would the calling range be?
Red wrote: »
When they prefer the 1st range, it's because they don't expect V giving action with many/enough worst hands than you can bet JJ or AQs for "pure" value.

It's certainly true that if I were to get 5 bet I would probably fold the weakest hands in range 2 but that's true with the weakest hands in range 1 as well.

But if we aren't expecting villains to continue very often wouldn't raising with any 2 cards be profitable?
Red wrote: »
(Sure, you could then expand your bluff 4bet range as exploit, expecting both V to fold too often; but then you will have a too high 4bet frequency, notable, against which Villains can adapt and exploit you by 5betting for bluff more.)

Now this brings up something that as a live only player I don't have much experience with. People being able to use HUD's to see what my exact frequencies have been.

I do not have a good feel for modern online NLH. Even when I played online many years ago limit holdem was the main game. Do we have a chart or list somewhere that shows what good frequencies are for various situations?

Thanks again for replying. It's very useful to have someone to help me hash through these things.

Cheers!

• Red Chipper Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭✭
Nunof wrote: »
Red wrote: »
But neither BU nor SB will continue will such wide ranges.

Agreed. Which, to me, is part of the attraction of raising. I feel I have a pretty good chance of winning the pot right there.

Are you saying that it would be more +EV to just call with the hands not in range 1 in order to try to extract value on later streets? I can certainly see that as a possibility, but what would the calling range be?
Yes and not (about winning it right now). Sure, cold 4bet will create a rather high fold % and let you win rather often.
But you've to account that both V have to fold, and it's unsure how they will react, based on their play style and range.

Especially about range: you put BB and SB on "reasonable GTO range". Yet no low and mid stakes player will play close to GTO; they will be either too tight or too loose.
Esp. live low stakes 1/2, 2/5 (and online micro stakes NL10 and lower?), I'd expect an unknown BU and Villains to have narrower ranges as the "reasonable GTO range" you hypothesize - esp. SB 3bet range. This will impact your FE greatly. Now as you see, expect result can quickly and consequently change depending on how we expect V to react and what ranges we put them on.

Calling... depends on the situation, esp. stack depth, Villains' reaction and Villains' mistake propensity. But cold calling OOP (to BU) when not closing the action should be done with precaution, esp. if stacks are rather shallow (120bb or smaller).
Nunof wrote: »
Now this brings up something that as a live only player I don't have much experience with. People being able to use HUD's to see what my exact frequencies have been.

I do not have a good feel for modern online NLH. Even when I played online many years ago limit holdem was the main game. Do we have a chart or list somewhere that shows what good frequencies are for various situations?
Can't help, I'm 100% live player. My eyes are my HUD. An online player may help you better here.

Also even if charts can give guideline, you still need to watch your Villain and adapt them / your strategy to their mistakes, otherwise you could value own yourself or let money on the table.
• RCP Coach Posts: 4,071 -
Keep in mind that the answers aren't "which one of these is optimal?" rather, "which of these proposed ranges is better than the other options?"

You could certainly expand your cold-4bet range widely here, but that's another discussion for another time =)
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• Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
Red wrote: »
Yet no low and mid stakes player will play close to GTO; they will be either too tight or too loose.

That's certainly true the vast majority of the time! Agreed. :)
Red wrote: »
Esp. live low stakes 1/2, 2/5 (and online micro stakes NL10 and lower?),

This is one aspect where I'm worried that playing in such a small playing pool has skewed my perceptions. In my small area the biggest games we've got are \$5/\$5 three nights a week and \$5/\$10 on Friday. All the other games are \$1/\$2 except for a \$2/\$3 that fires occasionally. Consequently we've got some pretty decent players playing low/mid stakes just because they are the biggest games available. I'm sure many of them would be playing higher if they lived in a place like LA or Vegas with bigger games available. To be fair though we've also got quite a few fish playing in the \$5/\$5 as well. :)

The hand in this example states that it is a \$5/\$10 game. In my area at least I would expect most players at that level to be competent enough to attempt steals and resteals. But like I said, \$5/\$10 in my area may play significantly differently than other areas.
Red wrote: »
I'd expect an unknown BU and Villains to have narrower ranges as the "reasonable GTO range" you hypothesize - esp. SB 3bet range.

Yeah, I too feel more worried by SB's 3 bet than the initial raise from the BU.

Even against narrower ranges though Range #2 still fares pretty well. Let's say we give
BU 21% of hands: AA-22,AKs-A2s,KQs-K9s,QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s,T9s-T8s,98s-97s,87s-86s,76s,65s,54s,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo,QJo

SB 11% of hands: AA-88,AKs-ATs,A5s-A2s,KQs-KJs,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,AKo-AJo,KQo

Our range of 5% of hands: AA-JJ,AKs-AQs,AKo-AJo still comes up with 42% raw equity.

It occurs to me that I'm unconsciously thinking about this range as the entire playable range rather than just the raising range. This is probably accounting for a large part of my incomprehension. Yeah, I need to ponder that some more.
Red wrote: »
Calling... depends on the situation, esp. stack depth, Villains' reaction and Villains' mistake propensity. But cold calling OOP (to BU) when not closing the action should be done with precaution, esp. if stacks are rather shallow (120bb or smaller).

Excellent point. No argument here. Stack depth especially.
Red wrote: »
Also even if charts can give guideline, you still need to watch your Villain and adapt them / your strategy to their mistakes, otherwise you could value own yourself or let money on the table.

Most definitely. Sage advice indeed. :)

I know players who I would 4 bet even wider and can think of one nit who if he did the 3 bet in the SB I might fold anything except AA (and might even wish my aces were suited *chuckle*)

I just defaulted to using GTO ranges because we don't have any information at all on the V's in the problem.

Cheers!
• Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
Hi SplitSuit. Thanks for responding! Love your videos. :)
SplitSuit wrote: »
Keep in mind that the answers aren't "which one of these is optimal?" rather, "which of these proposed ranges is better than the other options?"

Ah. I'm probably overthinking then and trying to tease out conclusions that this question wasn't designed for. My apologies if that's the case.

Still, I'm confused. If only given two options isn't the "better" choice the same as the "optimal" choice?
SplitSuit wrote: »
You could certainly expand your cold-4bet range widely here, but that's another discussion for another time =)

Yeah, I think I'm reading too much into the question. My fault.

Thanks!
• Red Chipper Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭✭
Nunof wrote: »
I just defaulted to using GTO ranges because we don't have any information at all on the V's in the problem.
This is a correct way of thinking / working with GTO. Yet as soon as you've information, either on your population, your table and/or on Villain himself, you should adapt this GTO range.
• RCP Coach Posts: 4,071 -
Nunof wrote: »
Hi SplitSuit. Thanks for responding! Love your videos. :)
SplitSuit wrote: »
Keep in mind that the answers aren't "which one of these is optimal?" rather, "which of these proposed ranges is better than the other options?"

Ah. I'm probably overthinking then and trying to tease out conclusions that this question wasn't designed for. My apologies if that's the case.

Still, I'm confused. If only given two options isn't the "better" choice the same as the "optimal" choice?

You're very welcome! And I like to be very careful with the word "optimal" =) Yes, the better choice among a few options is optimal among those options, but not necessarily optimal among all possible option including ones not listed.

Hopefully that makes sense lol.
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• Posts: 3,669 -
edited June 12
SplitSuit wrote: »
Nunof wrote: »
Hi SplitSuit. Thanks for responding! Love your videos. :)
SplitSuit wrote: »
Keep in mind that the answers aren't "which one of these is optimal?" rather, "which of these proposed ranges is better than the other options?"

Ah. I'm probably overthinking then and trying to tease out conclusions that this question wasn't designed for. My apologies if that's the case.

Still, I'm confused. If only given two options isn't the "better" choice the same as the "optimal" choice?

You're very welcome! And I like to be very careful with the word "optimal" =) Yes, the better choice among a few options is optimal among those options, but not necessarily optimal among all possible options including ones not listed.

Hopefully that makes sense lol.

And you say I am obsessive about detail???
Moderation In Moderation
• RCP Coach Posts: 4,071 -
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