First Hand Posting - Q8 SB vs BB

WickedWWickedW Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
Hi All,

Just finished - https://redchippoker.com/topic/saving-your-hands/

First Hand posting, sorry if not correct format or if this type of hand is answered a lot (welcome to point me in direction on how to find equivalents).

I had just watched Ed Millers streets of value video, and decided to see if could put it into practice in my next session (i.e. dont just jam when you have value to pick up the pot).

I promptly lost 4 buy-ins at 40NL (about £30 UK 6 MAX) over a 2 hour session.

I have a few hands from that session, this is just one, maybe I can post a couple others later -

Villain (V) Small blind £0.25 £0.25 £63.52
Hero Big blind £0.50 £0.75 £33.63

Your hole cards Qs 8h

V Raise £1.25 £2.00
Hero Call £1.00 £3.00

Flop 8d Qc 2d

V Bet £2.00 £5.00
Hero Call £2.00 £7.00

Turn 6c

V Bet £6.00 £13.00
Hero Raise £12.00 £25.00
V Call £6.00 £31.00

River 7c

V All-in £48.27 £79.27

I didn’t know a lot about villain, but I would put him more towards the looser range (and its 6 max) and seemed quite aggressive from the few hands I had seen.

On the flop I thought I would just call, as its possibly just an empty cbet and didnt want to chase him away just yet with a raise if he had nothing.

When he bets again on the turn I am now hoping he's got KQ or something like that, possibly diamonds flush draw, but I wanted to increase the pot size for the river and also not give him a free draw, so wanted to raise the "right" amount.

I just didn’t know what correct turn raise sizing to make and the time moves quickly on the site (about 10 seconds), As I said I thought I was in front at this stage and he could have possibly hit 2 lesser pair at that stage / or still been on a draw, and when he then called I knew he did not have trips.

I wasn't really able to run the range narrowing stuff we learned on the site at that speed.

Q) Could someone offer some advice on how to calculate the correct raise at this stage.


What should I do next?

I had £18.63 left to call at this stage.

Thanks for your help

Comments

  • KeyserS023KeyserS023 Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
    I think it's a crying call, but I would have raised larger on the turn (you're giving 25:6 odds, or a little better than 4:1, which makes most draws close to 0 EV without even considering implied odds). And given how little you have behind, I think that turn raise should be all-in.

    As played, you mostly have a bluff-catcher, but he could be value betting AA, KK, 87, or even possibly AQ. Of course, the club flush and straight draws came in, and I wouldn't rule out a set. But he's probably bluffing with all the busted diamond draws; I'm not on my computer with flopzilla now, but my intuition is that you're probably losing the majority of the time, but that a call is +EV. I'll leave it to others to be more precise.
  • KeyserS023KeyserS023 Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
    Also, in terms of calculating the right raise size, if you have access to Core, there's info on how to calculate a pot-sized raise here: https://redchippoker.com/topic/bet-sizing-basics/
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,499 -
    I think I prefer starting with a flop raise. I see your point about chasing away air, but: 1) it's quite hard for air to pick up equity on the turn with which to continue; 2) particularly in a BvB situation, all aggressive flop actions are suspect. So sure, V's c-bet could be made with anything, but because of that so could your raise. And since you flopped a monster, this may be the best way to get stacks in if you're facing a Q or a skeptical A8 type hand.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • WickedWWickedW Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited June 14
    Thank you @KeyserS023 and @TheGameKat, much appreciated.

    I think before watching the streets for value thing, I probably would have raised on the flop as you suggest to build the pot earlier, but it got me thinking about "realising my equity"; but also knowing when to get away from things later (this part I think I am having trouble with, I will post another hand later in same session). I probably don't understand the subtlety yet.

    I will "try" and use flopzilla (just started using it) and look at the EV of the play as you suggested, its important to know the EV now if I want to improve.

    With regards to bet size (totally agree on the larger size to reduce his pot odds further I just got blocked for time) + shoving all in on the turn, have I got the streets of value thing all wrong? If I push vs good bet size, he folds up his hand, and thats lost equity? or not?
  • WickedWWickedW Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    And from https://redchippoker.com/topic/bet-sizing-conventions/

    Turn 2-Bets. A turn 2-bet in a single raised pot usually depends on whether there was action on the flop. If the flop was checked through, a turn raise is frequently 3x the size of the turn bet. If the flop was bet, then turn 2-bet is usually more likely between 2.2x and 2.5x in sizing.

    So, maybe 2.5 (upper end) x 6 would have been easier to think about 15+.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,499 -
    In detail it's quite subtle and situational. There are certainly spots where raising the flop is just going to fold out hands you have crushed, but I don't think this is one of them. Players learn fairly rapidly that turn actions are more reliable indicators of strength than flop actions. This is part of the reason it's typically easier to get a bet or raise called on the flop than the turn. Calling flop and raising turn just screams "I got it".
    Moderation In Moderation
  • WickedWWickedW Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    Yes, it this subtlety that I find difficult to discuss and articulate on a forum at present, but will continue my reading and persevere.

    Thanks again.


  • PapaGiorgioPapaGiorgio Red Chipper Posts: 87 ✭✭
    Another of Ed Miller's videos emphasizes "Don't Pay Them Off". You showed strength by calling flop then checkraising turn. Yet, he still shoved into you on the river. He wants to play for stacks, which suggests to me that he has two pair+. Also, look at the size of his bets: 2/3 on flop, 6/7 on turn. I think its unlikely he has one pair, and given the action, I wouldn't be surprised to see trips.

    From a math stand point, you need to win 27% of the time to break even. I don't know if he has this percentage of hands in his range.

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