Playing range, OOP, 4-bet pot, 150bb

chip_hoggchip_hogg Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
Global Poker, 10NL, 6-max. 150bb effective ($15). Only read on main villain is from player notes, in a previous session (long ago?):

> Seen frequent, smallish 3-bets in a few hands. Have seen fold to big-ish 4-bet.

Preflop:
  • Folds to Hero (UTG+1): raise $0.35
  • Main Villain (CO): 3-bet $1.20
  • Folds to Hero: 4-bet $2.90
  • Main Villain calls

$5.95 in the pot, $12.08 behind. (SPR ~2)

Flop: :Ah:3h:2c

My range here... probably AA,KK,AKo,A5s. (Definitely open to advice on the range and bet sizing here.)

Villain's range? I don't know... what calls a small/medium 4-bet but doesn't 5-bet? TT-QQ, AK, AQ, AJs, KQs? (Definitely open to advice on reasonable range assumptions, etc.).

What's a good way to think about playing my range here? Here are some thoughts I have so far...

- Everything in my opponent's assumed range without an A is drawing very thin against my entire assumed range (except for a few flush draws). It seems like my bets with KK or A5s wouldn't really accomplish much by themselves: the hands they fold out didn't have much equity anyway, and if they do make the pot bigger, they're a huge dog.
- I have a nuts advantage (AA), which makes me think about betting a polarized range... but it's an SPR of 2, so there's not much room for getting fancy. A 1/3 pot flop bet leaves a pot sized shove on the turn.

Do I want a checking range here? Do I want to bet my entire range small to apply pressure? If I do, how do I play the turn against a call with my weak hands (KK, A5s)?

Basically I'm just interested in some analysis for this kind of spot. :)

Comments

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭✭
    I suggest you open up flopzilla and input your range assumptions. Then explore. change some of your preflop assumptions, and explore some more.

    Given your range assumptions, you are crushing this board. KK is the bottom of your range, and you will have a huge range advantage. So IF your assumptions are right this is super easy range bet the flop small situation for you.
  • AHallai_3AHallai_3 Red Chipper Posts: 44 ✭✭
    Your 4bet should be a tad bigger ($3.50+), and depending on your position, range should be a little wider. Maybe I missed what your position is, but on the button my 4bet looks like JJ+ AQs+ AKo A4s-A5s JTs. If we’re relatively deep (150bb+) I’ll mix in middle or small pair and small suited connectors.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭✭
    AHallai_3 wrote: »
    Your 4bet should be a tad bigger ($3.50+), and depending on your position, range should be a little wider. Maybe I missed what your position is, but on the button my 4bet looks like JJ+ AQs+ AKo A4s-A5s JTs. If we’re relatively deep (150bb+) I’ll mix in middle or small pair and small suited connectors.

    There is no need to use a 3x size with a 4b due to the natural narrowing of the ranges that occurs once you 3b. His 4b sizing is fine. You also need to be careful when constructing your own 4b range. How often your opponent will fold to a 4b should be a factor (although it's rare that we have reliable info on this) but I think this range you suggested is far too wide for a 2 SPR pot which would be less than 2 given the raise size you offered up.
  • AHallai_3AHallai_3 Red Chipper Posts: 44 ✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    AHallai_3 wrote: »
    Your 4bet should be a tad bigger ($3.50+), and depending on your position, range should be a little wider. Maybe I missed what your position is, but on the button my 4bet looks like JJ+ AQs+ AKo A4s-A5s JTs. If we’re relatively deep (150bb+) I’ll mix in middle or small pair and small suited connectors.

    There is no need to use a 3x size with a 4b due to the natural narrowing of the ranges that occurs once you 3b. His 4b sizing is fine. You also need to be careful when constructing your own 4b range. How often your opponent will fold to a 4b should be a factor (although it's rare that we have reliable info on this) but I think this range you suggested is far too wide for a 2 SPR pot which would be less than 2 given the raise size you offered up.

    I'm definitely on board with smaller 4bet sizing. (forgive me bc I'm out of practice and using forums to dive back into the game) Referring to my 4bet range, I do agree that setting myself up with marginal hands in 2 SPR pots is risky, but I was only referring to my BTN 4bet range. It's influx depending on the many different variables as I'm sure you agree that it should be. However, (and I'm definitely interested in more input), 4betting these hands, getting into a smaller SPR pot, adding in possible fold equity + easy flop decisions. Is that not a recipe for success?

    For example, if Hero 4bets with A5 of hearts and the flop comes Ad 8h 6h. Even if villian has AK of spades and shoves the flop, its plus EV to call (assuming my math is right) need to call $11.50 to win $18.50 with 46% equity. (flopping a flush draw against an over pair is almost exactly the same)

    And using the calling range OP gave, my range I suggested has almost a 7% range advantage and with position?

    Definitely open critical responses/opinions. Thanks!
  • AHallai_3AHallai_3 Red Chipper Posts: 44 ✭✭
    I seriously just noticed OOP is in the title........ "oops" lol
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14
    AHallai_3 wrote: »
    Ninjah wrote: »
    AHallai_3 wrote: »
    Your 4bet should be a tad bigger ($3.50+), and depending on your position, range should be a little wider. Maybe I missed what your position is, but on the button my 4bet looks like JJ+ AQs+ AKo A4s-A5s JTs. If we’re relatively deep (150bb+) I’ll mix in middle or small pair and small suited connectors.

    There is no need to use a 3x size with a 4b due to the natural narrowing of the ranges that occurs once you 3b. His 4b sizing is fine. You also need to be careful when constructing your own 4b range. How often your opponent will fold to a 4b should be a factor (although it's rare that we have reliable info on this) but I think this range you suggested is far too wide for a 2 SPR pot which would be less than 2 given the raise size you offered up.

    I'm definitely on board with smaller 4bet sizing. (forgive me bc I'm out of practice and using forums to dive back into the game) Referring to my 4bet range, I do agree that setting myself up with marginal hands in 2 SPR pots is risky, but I was only referring to my BTN 4bet range. It's influx depending on the many different variables as I'm sure you agree that it should be. However, (and I'm definitely interested in more input), 4betting these hands, getting into a smaller SPR pot, adding in possible fold equity + easy flop decisions. Is that not a recipe for success?

    For example, if Hero 4bets with A5 of hearts and the flop comes Ad 8h 6h. Even if villian has AK of spades and shoves the flop, its plus EV to call (assuming my math is right) need to call $11.50 to win $18.50 with 46% equity. (flopping a flush draw against an over pair is almost exactly the same)

    And using the calling range OP gave, my range I suggested has almost a 7% range advantage and with position?

    Definitely open critical responses/opinions. Thanks!

    The problem with that logic is that you miss the board significantly more than you hit it. Odds of flopping a flush draw are low. What happens when you have A5hh and the board comes Ac 8d 6d? You're going to have a tough time finding a fold in a fold in a 2 SPR pot. It's even more likely that the board comes with 3 random cards not containing an A. Do you bet/fold in a 2 SPR pot with this wide 4b range you created? Do you try to get to showdown when you have no showdown value?

    If we are too wide heading into any street, those hands have to go somewhere eventually. We either end of betting too many hands on the flop or we have too many hands that just have to give up when they miss.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,499 -
    I may be wandering off topic a bit here, bit there's a point that I think is touched on in this thread that has always interested me.

    One bit of advice I got early on studying poker was that we should create difficult decisions for our opponents, while creating easy ones for ourselves. I think this is okay in principle, but there are a couple of caveats.

    First, if we create situations which are difficult to navigate for all players involved, we should be okay with that. [With the tacit assumption that we game select well, and are thus the most skilled person at the table.]

    Second, and perhaps more importantly, it's actually quite easy in poker to take actions that make our subsequent decisions simple. As a reduction ad absurdum , suppose that, irrespective of stack depth, we choose a push-fold preflop strategy. Our preflop decision will then be purely robotic, and we've completely eliminated difficult postflop decisions.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • AHallai_3AHallai_3 Red Chipper Posts: 44 ✭✭
    edited June 14
    The problem with that logic is that you miss the board significantly more than you hit it. Odds of flopping a flush draw are low. What happens when you have A5hh and the board comes Ac 8d 6d? You're going to have a tough time finding a fold in a fold in a 2 SPR pot. It's even more likely that the board comes with 3 random cards not containing an A. Do you bet/fold in a 2 SPR pot with this wide 4b range you created? Do you try to get to showdown when you have no showdown value?

    If we are too wide heading into any street, those hands have to go somewhere eventually. We either end of betting too many hands on the flop or we have too many hands that just have to give up when they miss.

    Definitely agree that you miss the flop more than you hit, but so do they. There are many flop combinations that can come that put our "OOP" opponent in a tough spot. Going with the A5h example, sure we can miss the flop, but we also have barreling spots if we somehow back into a flush or straight draw on the turn.

    I know when you have too many hands in any kind of range, they need a place to go. But is it right to say that when my 4bet range I gave against supposed villian calling range has a 57-43 range advantage, is it really too wide? The RR , B , B line can't only be for QQ+, AK
  • AHallai_3AHallai_3 Red Chipper Posts: 44 ✭✭

    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I may be wandering off topic a bit here, bit there's a point that I think is touched on in this thread that has always interested me.

    One bit of advice I got early on studying poker was that we should create difficult decisions for our opponents, while creating easy ones for ourselves. I think this is okay in principle, but there are a couple of caveats.

    First, if we create situations which are difficult to navigate for all players involved, we should be okay with that. [With the tacit assumption that we game select well, and are thus the most skilled person at the table.]

    Second, and perhaps more importantly, it's actually quite easy in poker to take actions that make our subsequent decisions simple. As a reduction ad absurdum , suppose that, irrespective of stack depth, we choose a push-fold preflop strategy. Our preflop decision will then be purely robotic, and we've completely eliminated difficult postflop decisions.

    This has definitely peaked my interest. I've always operated under the assumption that finding easy situations is the most profitable, but never thought about being okay in the Hard ones bc, presumably, I'd be the better player in them. (under the assumption that I've table selected well and "know" that I'm the better player based on data)

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