Wsop National Champioship

IzatniceIzatnice Red Chipper Posts: 7
edited July 2015 in New To Poker Questions
Hi (I am new to the forum nice to meet all of you)
I am a middle aged poker player and have limited success with my tournament hobby. I chopped the daily at the Venetian for about 3300 6 years ago, but all other tournament success has been in the high rake low buy in tournament types. Last April i won or chopped the daily Ballys 9 am (Vegas)tournament 4 days in a row and on one of the days i also chopped the PH all-in fest on the same day. Chopped the TI nightly on the same trip, and chopped (taking the lions share) the daily at Harrahs in Cherokee in Dec 13 most of these have all been over 1k cashes,( but,as you guys know these are high variance luck fests and require little to no poker skill, anyone with a chart can play these, i have had little to no success in Deep Stack tournaments, i went back to Vegas in June of 2014 to play the Phantom series at PH and busted early and often giving back 1200 of the April 14 winnings.I just returned from a 5 day Vegas trip where i played 2 all in fests and busted both of those early, all-in Pre :9h:9s vs :8d:6h and :8s:8c vs :Ah:Jc pp's both times being out flopped. I have a fair to average grasp of the push/fold game but if i cant get to that stage of the tourney i cannot use the little part of the game i am comfortable with.

I give this way to long preview because the WSOP National Championship is being played in my home state here in about 2 weeks and i have started preparing for it trying to put 5-7 hours a day after work to give myself a shot at several of the tourneys. I will play event #4 for 135 dollars and a shot at the 10k tournament that is definitely a no-brainer.
I am struggling in the deep stacks with 3 bet defense I raise & get 3 bet what part of my range do i call with ,4Bet with intention of folding, 4bet with the intention of calling all-in, and what part do i fold. I know if i open say 40% on the button i should defend a certain percentage of the 40% range approximately, I have been using 40% of my total combos to make it unprofitable for Villain to 3bet me with any 2.I could just say the heck with it and decide to call with 20% of the 40% range so i am defending half of my range but i think that is way to broad. Also i think (not sure) if my 3bet defense percentages should be adjusted for stack size. I know this post is way long and please forgive me but i am frustrated with this problem and a systematic way to find a solution. Thanks for the help in advance.


  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    Welcome to the forum!

    I would suggest you do some studying on 4betting, especially when playing 25-50bb deep. Explore how wide villain needs to be 3betting, what your equity looks like when villain commits, etc. This will help you get on the right track imo.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,056 -
    The first thing I took away from your post is that you're thinking far deeper about tournament strategy than 95% of players in deep-stacked events up to a buy-in of about $400-500. At least this is the case in Vegas. I found there's a transition point around that buy-in where instead of nearly all of the players being terrible only the majority are bad.

    Partly because of this observation, my guess is that your lack of success in deep-stacked tournaments may have another origin. It could simply be variance. That's not to say that working on 3b defense isn't important, but I'd be surprised if that area alone is having a major impact on your results.

    How do you feel your post-flop play is in general? The main difference I see between deep-stacked events and the high-rake shove-fests is that the former requires better post-flop skills.
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  • IzatniceIzatnice Red Chipper Posts: 7
    I have read that most poker players over estimate their ability or scale themselves higher than they actually are. I try not to do that, my post flop skills are at my best below average, and here are my reasons for saying this.
    1. I don't have a clear and concise method of when i should apply pressure and when i shouldn't.
    2.When i raise from position to pick up the blinds/antes and either get 3 bet by a player with position or the blinds,or i get called by the BB, so he can reverse float,that leaves me with the position of sitting there asking myself what to do?

    I like having a plan and i know that every situation is different, but what i can say from years of coaching football is, not really.

    They are the same 52 cards, same stages of the tournament,same stack sizes,and for the most part same hand ranges. The difference comes in the person who has control over his or her domain.

    So a ton of situations,(just like in a football game)can be duplicated, thought through, and studied to arrive at a game plan, then contingencies put in place when the anomalies of the human psyche rear their head, which can happen sometimes in a poker tournament.I.E. I should fold here, then you utter to the dealer all-in. (we have all done it), giving those minor exceptions most game situations can be analyzed and a plan in place that applies most of the time.

    That is why when i am at the table and do not have a general rule for the situation like the above scenarios which i expand on lower frustrates me.( A note about the game plan we say when planning against any opponent we always reserve the right to change our minds) I.E. the tournament situation or specific opponent dictates that we deviate from the play call for 3rd down and 5,to something that has a higher rate of success. That being said here are the things i plan for ( and adjust for the stages of the tournament) and the things i am having trouble with.
    1. My range is the same from each position for the entirety of the tournament adjusting only for table conditions, to tight to loose.
    If the table is to tight i move my range one position to loosen up.
    If it is to loose i tighten up one position until it is folded to me in the CO/BU then i use the usual range unless i have a maniac on my left.

    By knowing how i will play going in i have a plan for most Tournament situations, stages, and stack sizes, i can also put the hand ranges in Zilla and know how they will react with a lot of boards. Now that i know how they interact with these boards i can look at my opponents reactions call or 3 bet and get a generalization of what his range is and the percentages of the relative strengths of his hands are.

    It is the scenarios below that have my planning coming to a little bit of a halt which is frustrating because i need to be putting stuff into Zilla and going through scenarios because the time is drawing near.
    Scenario 1
    A: A re-steal by these players ( the 3B scenario)

    1.I don't like having the initiative taken away because it negates some of the positional value but:
    a.The 4 bet frequency has to shrink the deeper in the tourney we get because of stack size, unless we want to shove,and even then to have adequate fold equity the stack size needs to be sufficient so its not an easy call.
    b.That leaves calling a lot of 3 bets, giving up the initiative, but at least playing from position or
    c. The dreaded i raise you 3bet i fold scenario instead of gaining 2.5 to 3bbs,we give up that many, at a point in the tournament where each chip starts to take on a higher monetary value.
    Scenario 2 (Blind Call)
    B: or a Reverse float by the BB where he floats the position raise then either:
    1. Donk bets the flop
    2. Check raises the flop
    3. or check calls the flop Donks the turn
    4. or Donks,the flop and turn.
    5. or check calls the flop and check raises the turn.

    These 2 scenarios are hurting me in spots in the tournament, early and middle stages where building stack size is critical and while i know there is no definitive answer to the, if they do this i should do that, without a doubt i also know there should and can be a general rule for these situations and then when needed use the ( we reserve the right to change our mind rule).

    Thanks for taking the time to answer the post and for reading the ramblings of a middle aged tournament poker hobbyist, forgive the long post and any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,056 -
    Few quick comments since I am about to leave for a noon tournament.

    Most of your opponents don't have a light 3-bet range. This has a couple of consequences. First, you don't need a light 4-bet range. Second, your steals are getting through more than you might emotionally realize. Yes getting 3-bet is irritating, and I think because of that it gets larger on our radar than it deserves. Note too that steals become better value once the antes have kicked in. For this reason I open up my late-position range at this point.

    My raise-fold % to anyone who has position on me in these spots is highly exploitable. On the rare occasions that someone takes advantage of that I tighten up and check with floor the order of the table breaks. Now I'd be the first to admit this isn't sophisticated poker and I imagine some of the tough guys on these boards will be horrified by such an approach, but quality opponents are so rare I find it effective.

    If I get 3-bet by the blinds I usually have the hand strength to call, at least if effective stacks are deep enough. I like my chances heads-up in position and as someone who is more comfortable with PLO I don't mind not having the betting lead.

    A general point that requires more explanation than I have time for now: I think your opening ranges should vary quite a bit with stack depth, particularly when you have efficient shove-stacks behind you.

    The work you're doing is excellent and is going to make it a lot easier to make decisions on the fly. However, as in football, you need both a game plan AND to be fully cognizant of what's happening during the game. All your pre-game work may say to avoid the opponent's star cornerback, but if you notice he just had the wind knocked out of him you call a pass play deep to that side.

    Good luck ~ Kat
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  • IzatniceIzatnice Red Chipper Posts: 7
    Making a close guess-ti-mate about number of hands dealt in an hour, for a WSOP Circuit type Event would approximately 25 hands an hour figuring on a table with auto shuffler be close or would that number be way off ? I know it depends on pace of play and other factors but just a rough estimate would be great ( i can always skew it up or down + or - to get a rough estimate) Thanks
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,056 -
    Depends on whether you have any Doc Sands wannabees, buy typically I'd expect it to start off higher than that (possibly 35) and reduce to 25 as the blinds get bigger and decisions become more critical.
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  • IzatniceIzatnice Red Chipper Posts: 7
    It is so funny you said that, Sands is probably the only pro I have passed multiple times in the RIO that does not nod their head at you or give a brief smile, he stared at me so hard a couple of weeks ago that when he walked by into the Amazon Room my wife said to me "What is that guys problem"? Thanks for the info i will adjust my figures to start out at 35 HPH hope you are running well now. Talk to you Soon
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,056 -
    Cheers, man, good luck.
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