Showing my graph for the first time

CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
edited July 7 in Online Poker Hands
I wanted to show my graph for the first time, and gain some general insight. Below I'll provide some context as well:

Goal: To obtain a skill set through recreational online poker that would in theory translate/generate to a 10bb/100 win-rate at a live 2/5 table

As you can see I have taken an unorthodox approach to poker as a recreational player. First, I only follow one rule which is don't play with money I can't afford to lose in the first place. I completely understand the logic and frankly math behind why certain win-rates are important to attain before moving up stakes, or the significance of the level of personal capital involved etc. I just personally only choose the one rule that ultimately matters at the end of the day.

I've played for a total of about 18 months so far (6max tables only) and the stats are from March of 2019 (when I purchased PT4). Also the unorthodox approach isn't only pertaining to bankroll, I also "mess around" by doing things like seeing where I would fall after 25k hands at 5nlz (2-table). Or the 10k hands so far at 10nl have all been 4-tabled just to see again, what I'm capable of.

With all of that being said, I'm wondering if there is anything else that might be abnormal here, anything that stands out..frankly anything since I haven't shown my graph before. Thanks in advance all

P.S. I am aware 52k hands is a super small sample size

icjpvva5r4ef.jpg
Overall by stakes

32mk589rbilv.jpg
Overall by position

4fi0vi1bu2o8.jpg
Leak-tracker pt. 1

i351ziobyijd.jpg
Leak-tracker pt. 2
«1

Comments

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭✭
    I can't see anything clear enough to answer

    post a readable position report with WR/VP/PFR/3B/CC/RFI.....
  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    @kenaces my bad, if you're on a desktop, you should be able to right click each image to view it. Still though, I was worried about this. I'll work on a breakdown in a bit



  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    If youre on mobile you can long-tap and open in new tab, then you can zoom in on the image
  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 118 ✭✭
    You may be able to get more feedback if you post the actual numbers from your leak tracker screenshots instead of graphs with no headings. If you break it down by position, that would make it easier as well.
  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    BFSkinner wrote: »
    You may be able to get more feedback if you post the actual numbers from your leak tracker screenshots instead of graphs with no headings. If you break it down by position, that would make it easier as well.

    Well I actually did provide headings for each image, and I wasn't sure if providing the leak-tracker numbers made sense given they are from PT4
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭✭
    @kenaces my bad, if you're on a desktop, you should be able to right click each image to view it. Still though, I was worried about this. I'll work on a breakdown in a bit

    Cool, I can see them now but still not positional stats, and I don't really know details of what leakfinder bars represent because it doesn't show actual stats.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    As a general rule, dumping a lot of information that requires multiple steps to read/interpret, then asking very broad questions, doesn't typically elicit much useful feedback.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 118 ✭✭
    BFSkinner wrote: »
    You may be able to get more feedback if you post the actual numbers from your leak tracker screenshots instead of graphs with no headings. If you break it down by position, that would make it easier as well.

    Well I actually did provide headings for each image, and I wasn't sure if providing the leak-tracker numbers made sense given they are from PT4

    PokerTracker and Holdem Manager use very similar stats. Almost everyone who is able uses a tracking program. If you assume we know what VPIP and PFR mean, you should assume we can understand the percentages associated with them.

    Forget leak tracker. Just post the stats by position from the main page.
  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited July 8
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    As a general rule, dumping a lot of information that requires multiple steps to read/interpret, then asking very broad questions, doesn't typically elicit much useful feedback.

    That's my fault for assuming we would generally understand to start with simple concepts like "Am I on track with the goal by any mathematical stretch?", "Is my goal realistic?" and then go from there. The intention of this post was to be broad; so it should follow that we start with broad concepts to discuss and narrow the scope from there.

    EDIT: I am 100% not being facetious
  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    @kenaces my bad, if you're on a desktop, you should be able to right click each image to view it. Still though, I was worried about this. I'll work on a breakdown in a bit

    Cool, I can see them now but still not positional stats, and I don't really know details of what leakfinder bars represent because it doesn't show actual stats.

    Correct, and to @BFSkinner 's point; I was being stupid and misunderstood what he was getting at. I absolutely did not mean to come off as condescending by inferring people weren't up to speed etc. working on a more reasonable break down as we speak.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    As a general rule, dumping a lot of information that requires multiple steps to read/interpret, then asking very broad questions, doesn't typically elicit much useful feedback.

    That's my fault for assuming we would generally understand to start with simple concepts like "Am I on track with the goal by any mathematical stretch?", "Is my goal realistic?" and then go from there. The intention of this post was to be broad; so it should follow that we start with broad concepts to discuss and narrow the scope from there.

    EDIT: I am 100% not being facetious

    Understood, it was the intention I was questioning. I know this forum quite well, and my experience is that such broad questions *typically* get less useful answers than more focused ones.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited July 8
    @BFSkinner @kenaces @TheGameKat

    Below is a breakdown that's easier to follow:

    Total hands: 52,889

    Over all by stakes:
    • 50nl (6max): 10,817 hands - 18.69bb/100
    • 10nl (6max 4-tables): 10,965 hands - 24.77bb/100
    • 5nlZ (2-tables): 25,510 hands - 5.80bb/100
    • 50nlZ: 2,954 hands - 5.42bb/100
    • 200nlZ: 1,165 hands - 20.90bb/100

    Over all by position:
    • BTN: 9,339 hands - 32.06bb/100
    • CO: 8,809 hands - 36.72bb/100
    • MP: 8,455 hands - 23.23bb/100
    • EP: 6931 hands - 27.74bb/100
    • BB: 9,816 hands - (-27.74)bb/100
    • SB: 9,539 hands - (-8.80)bb/100

    VP: 19.81
    PFR: 12.88
    3b: 5.30 - Fold to 3b: 78.21
    4b+: 4.18 - Fold to 4b: 51.58
    PF Squeeze: 4.84
    WSD: 55.50
    WTSD: 27.18
    WWSF: 43.93
    WSD after River call: 47.02

    Right away (aside from this being a small sample size) I can see that I need to increase the PFR value to about 18, and can also increase to 8-11% for 3b since I play 6max. I can also be completely wrong hence me posting this. To Kat's point I would like to know if anyone notices anything else that is sort of glaringly obvious that I may be missing as I am still learning etc. Also, is my goal listed above realistic or not etc. If there is any other info that would be valuable for this post, please advise. Thanks again everyone!
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭✭
    yeah 20/13 is too passive - you can likely RFI more/raise limpers more/3b more

    fold to 3B = 78 is super high but if your average opponent is very nitty it might be ok exploit to overfold. That said I think at 50NL+ on most sites this much folding is a leak.

    Why not post a screenshot of what I asked above - should only take a few minutes to add some stats to a PT position report, and the position stats are far more telling
  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    @kenaces

    First, thanks for the guidance, I think what you're saying makes complete sense. That said, can I ask which stats you're mentioning above? I only saw CC and RFI being the two missing, the other numbers I listed above are taken from the leak tracker section in my PT4.

    RFI I thought was the same as PFR (raise first in, vs preflop raise); and CC if I can assume here, means cold call percentage maybe? Is there a way I can post screenshots that are more legible? I used the basic snipit tool with the images above, but I would totally be open to a better way.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    I think what kenaces and others are interested in are your VPIP and PFR as a function of position. I doubt the database is currently big enough to look at other stats by position.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I think what kenaces and others are interested in are your VPIP and PFR as a function of position. I doubt the database is currently big enough to look at other stats by position.

    I listed exactly what I was interested in above. I do think other preflop stats leave big clues on a 50K database.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    edited July 11
    kenaces wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I think what kenaces and others are interested in are your VPIP and PFR as a function of position. I doubt the database is currently big enough to look at other stats by position.

    I listed exactly what I was interested in above. I do think other preflop stats leave big clues on a 50K database.

    Let me correct my previous statement.

    What kenaces is interested in is listed above. What others have expressed an interest in is VPIP/PFR as a function of position. One is a subset of the other.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    @TheGameKat apologies for the ignorance here, but I'm still learning and I'm unclear what you mean by VPIP/PFR being a subset of position. Are you stating that others have expressed interest in what my VPIP/PFR stats by each position? If so, I would revert back to my other question regarding any additional ways I can provide screenshots in a manner that is more legible outside of the snip-it tool.

    One question came to mind though as I've reflected further; is there a detriment that I might be unaware of; when it comes to stake-hopping as I mentioned above? Again, I understand the logic behind gaining enough experience/capital at each stake to handle variance when shot-taking etc. I also would like to presume that even though the micros are all generally very similar in player pool strategies; there are nuanced differences, for example the difference in UTG ranges from 5NL to 50NL.

    So with all of that being understood, am I being toxic to myself by "recreationally" hopping stakes I'm comfortable with? "Don't gamble with money that you can't afford to lose" is the only rule that stood out to me as the one and only rule that's really the most significant, while the others are just helpful if you may. Am I being incredibly ignorant here?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    The average values of VPIP and PFR that you've provided have limited utility. For example, a 23/18 may be a solid reg, but if they're opening 23/18 from UTG and the BTN, they aren't.

    My subset comment was that what most people are requesting is a subset of what kenaces is requesting.

    As a general preference, I think people are more comfortable with data than screenshots. Many of us haven't been able to use PT4 for a decade, and the graphical output looks nothing like it used to. To me it's just an additional layer of work.

    As to stake hopping, I don't really understand its purpose. If you simply enjoy taking shots at 200NL, go for it. This is supposed to be fun, not work.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    @TheGameKat thanks for the guidance, as well as the validation towards stake-hopping. I will work to throw together a stat per position layout in a bit. I think it should be noted here that I am not one to spend personal energy/time on the internet with people I don't know; in pursuit of "being right". I'm on here for one reason only which is to learn; so if I ever defend a decision of mine, it's not to come off as close-minded etc.

    To recap and make sure I'm understanding this correctly; a breakdown of VPIP/PFR-like numbers per position will be more beneficial to see in order to give further advice on leaks in my game etc?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    Right. As noted by others, the gap between your average VPIP and PFR is a bit big, but an equally useful diagnostic of potential problems is how your VPIP and PFR vary with position.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited July 11
    Total hand count: 54,589

    BTN
    VPIP/PFR: 26/15

    CO
    VPIP/PFR: 23/17

    MP
    VPIP/PFR: 16/14

    EP
    VPIP/PFR: 17/16

    BB
    VPIP/PFR: 20/5

    SB
    VPIP/PFR: 17/11

    This is where my skill/knowledge base might fall short. I feel that my blinds game needs major improvement as well as my game from MP. Since I'm mainly 4-tabling 10nl 6max right now; I find myself being a bit more passive due to my level of confidence in post-flop play against this general player pool.

    I feel MP is more challenging to improve, than my blinds strategy...mainly because I've been led to believe that the blinds are far more simplistic then people make them out to be. My challenge with MP, is constructing a range that's primarily comprised of strong multi-way hands (suited connectors 78s+, suited aces, smaller PPs). Either way I hope this helps shed some light on my original post. Thanks in advance everyone!
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    My experience with 6-max is confined to limit, but on general principles I'd guess you're playing overly tight from BTN and a bit loose UTG.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    @TheGameKat I think that makes total sense. If I can recall CORE, I believe a healthy RFI range from the BTN in 6max is 38-45%, where UTG is more like 11-13% of hands. This helps because I haven't looked at CORE in over a year by now so talking this out is beneficial. Thanks again for the guidance!
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    Welcome
    Moderation In Moderation
  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 118 ✭✭
    Are you limping or flatting raises in CO and BU?
  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited July 13
    @BFSkinner what I aim to do in LP, is to flat any opens from a tight UTG player, but on the flip-side I try and look for spots to 3b (not just against weak EP ranges) but from say the BTN vs a wide CO range as well.

    I also try and follow the sort of "the worse your hand, the bigger the bluff-size" in addition to something like for example: I'll consider 3b KQo against a wide UTG open, but I'll flat ATs against a tight UTG opening range. This is where my strategy (whether a good one or not) and knowledge base probably stops, and I also can be totally wrong here.
  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 118 ✭✭
    @BFSkinner what I aim to do in LP, is to flat any opens from a tight UTG player, but on the flip-side I try and look for spots to 3b (not just against weak EP ranges) but from say the BTN vs a wide CO range as well.

    This seems conceptually backward. A wide range will tend to call more liberally while a tight range will likely fold most of their medium hands. What you are saying is that you want to get into a bigger pot against a wider range with a weaker hand, while keeping a tighter range in a small pot against a player who has a tighter range.

    Often, this strategy will leave you with a mediocre hand against both ranges.

    It might be simpler to consider 3-betting the tighter ranges and folding to a 4-bet and flatting a wider range against the loose player with an attempt to take down the pot when they often miss. In both instances, you will 3-bet your premiums with a balanced 3-bet bluff range.

  • CptSpauldingCptSpaulding Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited July 14
    @BFSkinner it sounds backwards because it is lol. The first sentence in your response made me realize how crazily insane my described strategy was. I'll take some time to candidly mention that I am horrible at receiving all the information on the first go around when it comes to forums...so my responses in turn are based off of my hastiness and incomplete information. Then I go back and realize how like 3/4 of what I initially write a lot of the times; I'm actually trying to say something totally different...not proud of it, anyway the point is you're correct. What I honestly meant to say is:

    When I first started over a year ago, I chose not to 3b a tight UTG range in fear of them coming over the top with a jam or a 5x 4b. Recently I started paying far more actual attention to the VPIP stats of the other players (super embarrassing I didn't before)...and I realized again, you're correct and that's actually what I'm currently trying to fix in my game currently. I see it now as I can just fold/reload to something like an over the top jam if I'm holding a hand like KQo in the CO..that easy.

    **I will admit though, I think I pay maybe too much attention to "blockers" in the sense that I am also backwards on occasion where I'll flat a hand like TT OOP, but I'll 3b it IP...which now sounds bad haha

    As far as my flatting tendencies now, I again am trying to erase that mistake of flatting tight ranges (another way of saying it I guess?)....and I now look to flat against wide ranges and outplay them postflop; where I rely heavily on the range and nut advantages on each board texture to guiding my bluffs/value bets to do so.
  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 118 ✭✭
    I'll take some time to candidly mention that I am horrible at receiving all the information on the first go around when it comes to forums...so my responses in turn are based off of my hastiness and incomplete information.

    This defensiveness will severely hinder your growth as a poker player. You do not post hands to look good, you post them for feedback on how to get better. If you want to look like a good player, become a consistent winner (which inversely will make you indifferent to the need of being perceived as a good player because you know what you can and can't do)

    **I will admit though, I think I pay maybe too much attention to "blockers" in the sense that I am also backwards on occasion where I'll flat a hand like TT OOP, but I'll 3b it IP...which now sounds bad haha

    I'm not quite sure what you mean here. How are you utilizing blockers in this context?

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