First posted hand!! 6 max Zoom Deepstack pot

RandonRiversRandonRivers BlackburnRed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
5NL Zoom - 6-Max
I've only got around 50 hands on each opponent. MP is 20/20 no 3bets and BTN is 39/39/13.
Though the whole hand I felt like I was in trouble and in the past I've have certainly folded far too much hand equity, so I am trying to not fold as much. This hand however was deep and even though I felt I was beat I thought at least by playing more passive here I was keeping his bluffs in his range if he was a maniac even though hard to be certain over only 50ish hands.
How should I of played this on each street?
Welcome any feedback and appreciate all people taking to time to reply.

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Comments

  • RandonRiversRandonRivers BlackburnRed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Click on link and the hand loads. Also would love help on why it didn't embed the hand here even though I copied the code over haha. Sorry First attempt
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    No idea on the embed. Usually it's because the share has multiple forum style options and you picked the wrong one, but since the preference is for written HHs (I think), I've never explored it.

    I think once you call pre and flop TPTK at that depth, you went broke the correct way. Did you consider folding pre? It may well be too nitty, but playing AKo OOP to two in a 4-bet pot is really not something I want to do, whereas 5-betting at this depth and stake seems a bit nuts.

    Moderation In Moderation
  • RandonRiversRandonRivers BlackburnRed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    I actually did yeah and my normal play here. The fact that he was seeming to be a bit loose and aggressive and the fact that I have been folding my hand equity far too much I thought maybe this was a spot. Since we was deep I didn't think re-raising was +EV as I think I'm only getting action from better and calling keeps his bluffs in his range. I wasn't thrilled tbh with having MP in the hand also and maybe the reason in the past I would also opt to fold here with also being deep.
    I do however thinking about your comment think you are right and folding may be the best action pre. Only losing 3.5bbs and will find much more better spots to play. Thanks for your feedback
  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 118 ✭✭
    You flop top 2 with a backdoor flush draw in a bloated pot of 76 bb with a SPR of 2, You were going to go broke on this hand. Folding would be way too nitty.

    Don't focus on hands where you would not have thought twice about posting it had you won. There are many other spots that you can post that will likely offer you more constructive feedback.
  • RandonRiversRandonRivers BlackburnRed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    I haven’t posted the hand because I lost I would of still posted if I won. It was more about a spot where I would edge towards a fold pre flop because I’m guilty of folding far too much hand equity at the moment in lots of spots. so ended up playing it. I do now however think possibly the correct play here was to fold pre or play as I did post flop if I do call.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    I haven’t posted the hand because I lost I would of still posted if I won. It was more about a spot where I would edge towards a fold pre flop because I’m guilty of folding far too much hand equity at the moment in lots of spots. so ended up playing it. I do now however think possibly the correct play here was to fold pre or play as I did post flop if I do call.

    I'd be interested to know how you reached that conclusion.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RandonRiversRandonRivers BlackburnRed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    I know I play fit or fold too much. Also the gap between my fold to flop and fold to turn cbet is too wide. I’m also guilty of folding when draws hit because it’s hit rather than work out villains range. Probably lots of spots where I’m folding when them hands aren’t even in their range due to actions on previous streets but at the moment I’m a level one thinker. Hoping with the work and the continued help from you guys I continue to progress and realise more spots where I’m giving up too easily.
    This hand HU I think getting it all in pre is fine but with the position and the action before me AK is possibly better EV for someone on my level to just fold and find a better spot.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    Makes sense. I think a point that is always worth keeping in mind, however, is that fit-or-fold can be less expensive than something-and-call.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RandonRiversRandonRivers BlackburnRed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Hopefully with yours and everyone else’s help and plenty of hard work I will get there. Thanks again for all your advice
  • PjotrskiPjotrski Red Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭

    I think the most important lesson here is to not make decisions on a general feeling you have about folding too much. It (in my experience) means you're simply not sure about why you are taking decisions OR some doubt enters your mind after you fold for the 4th time against a raise. It's 5NL, 99% of the players aren't going to be messing around much.

    I have made many many of these crying calls where I don't want to believe villain. Folding = winning money on our levels I keep reminding myself :-)

    ============

    Sure, he may look a bit aggressive over 50 hands and maybe he is, but that is usually not enough to assign a wider than default cold4bet range. Hell, most players barely have one on our levels.

    - 1st 3bet MP (QQ+,AK or perhaps tighter)
    - cold4bet (QQ+,AK if optimistic, often more nutted)
    - 180 bb deep
    - MP still left to act
    - OOP vs both villains

    Calling is the worst option I think: Since so much of both their ranges are value hands our AKo is really hard to play postflop in this situation. Villains are rarely going broke with QQ on a K high board 3way. When the money does go in I think you're just hoping to chop it a lot. Even with 2 pair you weren't comfortable calling down (which makes sense).

    Raise/calling isn't great either: MP folds everything but KK+ against a cold4bet and a 5bet. IF MP folds then BU can close the action if he wants to.

    IF we 5bet to $3 and he 6bets he's probably shoving.

    $6 for a pot > $18 (minus rake)

    QQ+,AK: 38.8% equity --> call
    KK+, AKs and 3 QQ combos: 30.4% --> close fold
    KK+: 18.4% --> clear fold

    It's very tempting for a villain to just cold call AK and QQ IP vs a 3bet. Especially this deep (they don't want to fold and don't feel like 4betting either). So 5bet/calling is most likely BE at best, but I think most likely terrible.


    Raise/folding: At least one of them will have KK+ 44% of the time in the optimistic scenario. To 5bet/fold both of them need to fold 60% of the time.

    If they'd fold 100% of the rest of their range then 5betting/folding would be good, but at least one of them will call quite regularly. Especially BU may decide to call and hope for a good flop with QQ/AK IF those are in his cold 4bet range in the first place. Then you'd be in a huge OOP pot and end up with A high most of the time. And BU can also get tricky and call AA.


    So....calling is no good. 5bet calling BE at best and possibly horrible and 5bet/folding isn't great either as villain(s) may call the bottom of their range leaving you in the same situation as calling the 4bet.

    In that case simply folding is a sensible thing to do. There will be better spots against BU if he is indeed more aggro.






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