A point about multiway pots

Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
edited July 2020 in CORE
I have to disagree with the 3rd criteria in the CORE lesson on trapping in Preflop II
https://redchippoker.com/topic/trapping/

I think a lot of hold em players are irrationally afraid of multiway action. There are times when you want multiway action and times when you dont. hands that are not very vulnerable, and hands with high implied odds are hands that benefit from multiway action, while hands that are vulnerable are hands that suffer from multiway action.

there is of course your own skill to be wary of, in the sense that, if we are prone to making mistakes in multiway action, we may want to avoid it. there is no doubt that navigating a multiway pot is more difficult than navigating a headsup pot with hands like AA, but if you can navigate skillfully, you can generate a higher expectation.

the common argument is that hands like AA lose equity in multiway pots. yes, that is true, but thats only one part of the equation. the other part of the equation is the pot odds. the pot odds increase disproportionately to the amount that the equity is decreased

here is a specific example where I was intentionally inviting multiway action with AA, unfortunately I didnt get it, but it would be hard to argue that BTN coming along would have been detrimental to my EV:

PokerStars - $0.30 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: $34.24
CO: $33.67
BTN: $29.55
SB: $44.00
Hero (BB): $30.45
UTG: $162.75

SB posts SB $0.15, Hero posts BB $0.30

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.45) Hero has :AH::AD:

fold, MP calls $0.30, fold, BTN raises to $1.50, SB raises to $4.05, Hero calls $3.75, fold, BTN calls $2.55

Flop: ($12.45, 3 players) :4S::3C::KS:
SB bets $3.67, Hero calls $3.67, fold

Turn: ($19.79, 2 players) :9D:
SB checks, Hero bets $7.80, SB raises to $25.69, Hero calls $14.93 and is all-in

River: ($65.25, 2 players) :7S:

SB shows :KC::AC: (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 12%, Flop 14%, Turn 5%)
Hero shows :AH::AD: (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 88%, Flop 86%, Turn 95%)
Hero wins $63.25

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 4,448 -
    edited July 2020
    I think this line is reasonable for multiple reasons, none of which conflict with the general guidelines on slowplaying given in CORE.

    First, a cold 4-bet at these stakes indicates such a strong range, it's something you might want to avoid here, particularly given the other two more important factors. Namely, the action is still open, such that BTN may come back with a 4-bet and you might end up all-in pre 3-way with the nuts. Fabulous. Additionally, whatever happens after you flat, the SPR will be low enough that the positional disadvantage you have against the BTN when they call is minimized.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I think this line is reasonable for multiple reasons, none of which conflict with the general guidelines on slowplaying given in CORE.

    First, a cold 4-bet at these stakes indicates such a strong range, it's something you might want to avoid here, particularly given the other two more important factors. Namely, the action is still open, such that BTN may come back with a 4-bet and you might end up all-in pre 3-way with the nuts. Fabulous. Additionally, whatever happens after you flat, the SPR will be low enough that the positional disadvantage you have against the BTN when they call is minimized.

    I haven't a clue what the CORE lesson was but this hand is a slam dunk cold 4B.

    There is really no reason to ever have a flat call 3B in this spot, and doing with AA is just fancy play syndrome. I can tell you for sure that in solverland 4B and is higher EV play, and I believe this is also true in the real world.
  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I think this line is reasonable for multiple reasons, none of which conflict with the general guidelines on slowplaying given in CORE.

    First, a cold 4-bet at these stakes indicates such a strong range, it's something you might want to avoid here, particularly given the other two more important factors. Namely, the action is still open, such that BTN may come back with a 4-bet and you might end up all-in pre 3-way with the nuts. Fabulous. Additionally, whatever happens after you flat, the SPR will be low enough that the positional disadvantage you have against the BTN when they call is minimized.

    I haven't a clue what the CORE lesson was but this hand is a slam dunk cold 4B.

    There is really no reason to ever have a flat call 3B in this spot, and doing with AA is just fancy play syndrome. I can tell you for sure that in solverland 4B and is higher EV play, and I believe this is also true in the real world.

    if button is the kind of player that is going to stack off with flopped top pair, does that change the scenario at all? I know node-locking the stacking off ranges to be more fishy in solverland can have dramatic effects on how you adjust your strategy. are there solvers for 6max preflop with multiway postflop? i thought the only solvers that do preflop only run headsup.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 4,448 -
    Ori13_TTV wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I think this line is reasonable for multiple reasons, none of which conflict with the general guidelines on slowplaying given in CORE.

    First, a cold 4-bet at these stakes indicates such a strong range, it's something you might want to avoid here, particularly given the other two more important factors. Namely, the action is still open, such that BTN may come back with a 4-bet and you might end up all-in pre 3-way with the nuts. Fabulous. Additionally, whatever happens after you flat, the SPR will be low enough that the positional disadvantage you have against the BTN when they call is minimized.

    I haven't a clue what the CORE lesson was but this hand is a slam dunk cold 4B.

    There is really no reason to ever have a flat call 3B in this spot, and doing with AA is just fancy play syndrome. I can tell you for sure that in solverland 4B and is higher EV play, and I believe this is also true in the real world.

    if button is the kind of player that is going to stack off with flopped top pair, does that change the scenario at all? I know node-locking the stacking off ranges to be more fishy in solverland can have dramatic effects on how you adjust your strategy. are there solvers for 6max preflop with multiway postflop? i thought the only solvers that do preflop only run headsup.

    Monker can probably handle it.
    Moderation In Moderation

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