Full House On River vs 3bet.

BartholomewBartholomew Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
Villain is an unknown. I believe he sat down not too long before this hand took place. I just started playing online again last week, and I want to take it seriously this time and improve my game. Any feedback on this river (or any other part of the hand) would be appreciated.

MP: $6.54 (327 bb)
CO: $1.53 (76.5 bb)
BTN: $2.45 (122.5 bb)
SB: $2.94 (147 bb)
Hero (BB): $3.40 (170 bb)
UTG: $5.80 (290 bb)

SB posts $0.01, Hero posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has Jclub4.gif 4spade4.gif
2 folds, CO calls $0.02, fold, SB calls $0.01, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.06, 3 players) Jdiamond4.gif 4heart4.gif 9spade4.gif
SB checks, Hero bets $0.04, CO calls $0.04, fold

Turn: ($0.14, 2 players) Kdiamond4.gif
Hero bets $0.09, CO calls $0.09

River: ($0.32, 2 players) 4diamond4.gif
Hero bets $0.24, CO raises to $0.48, Hero raises to $1.50, CO calls $0.90 and is all-in

Results: $3.08 pot ($0.14 rake)
Final Board: Jdiamond4.gif 4heart4.gif 9spade4.gif Kdiamond4.gif 4diamond4.gif

Hero shows Jclub4.gif 4spade4.gif: (Full House, Fours full of Jacks)
(Pre 12%, Flop 73%, Turn 0%)

CO shows Kclub4.gif Kheart4.gif: (Full House, Kings full of Fours)
(Pre 88%, Flop 27%, Turn 100%)

CO wins $2.94

Would a call have been better? The way it played out, I didn't see villain having any hands that beat me. I discarded KK, JJ, and 99 because he simply limped in the CO, and I'd expect villain to raise those hands. The min raise looked like a flush to me, and I think putting villain all in was the right play, but I don't know what I don't know, so if anyone has another opinion, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks!

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    It feels like your line is fine, but I think it's a good exercise in a spot like this to write down all the hands your opponent might have played this way to find out how many you're beating and how many you beat. It's likely reasonable to include some very low frequency of the hand he actually had along with JJ and 99, although in game I would have also ruled them out.

    Just eyeballing it, I suspect it may be quite sensitive to assumptions about how often V continues on the flop with backdoor flush draws.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • BartholomewBartholomew Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    It feels like your line is fine, but I think it's a good exercise in a spot like this to write down all the hands your opponent might have played this way to find out how many you're beating and how many you beat. It's likely reasonable to include some very low frequency of the hand he actually had along with JJ and 99, although in game I would have also ruled them out.

    Thanks! I'm going to open Flopzilla tomorrow and do just that!
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Just eyeballing it, I suspect it may be quite sensitive to assumptions about how often V continues on the flop with backdoor flush draws.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "quite sensitive to assumptions". Could you elaborate on that?
  • PapaGiorgioPapaGiorgio Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    I agree with Kat that your line looks OK. However, before 3-betting him on the river, yoh should ask which hands would call. I think QT and the diamond flush raise on the river, but would they also call your 3-bet? I say 'yes' at 2NL, which is why I think your line is OK.

    Also, 2NL is full of strange play. You might want to try to move to 5NL or 10NL where hand reading is easier.
  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    I agree with Kat, but because terminology is important for effective communication:


    River: ($0.32, 2 players) 4diamond4.gif
    Hero bets $0.24(this is a "bet"), CO raises to $0.48(this is a "2bet"), Hero raises to $1.50(this is a "3bet"), CO calls $0.90 and is all-in

    So you would be vs a 2bet, not vs a 3bet.

    The confusion people seem to have is that open raising preflop is considered a 2bet because the blinds are considered to be the first bet.
  • BartholomewBartholomew Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    However, before 3-betting him on the river, yoh should ask which hands would call. I think QT and the diamond flush raise on the river, but would they also call your 3-bet? I say 'yes' at 2NL, which is why I think your line is OK.

    That's a good point, thank you. I did not think about that at the time, and I should have.
    Ori13_TTV wrote: »
    So you would be vs a 2bet, not vs a 3bet.

    Thank you for pointing out my error! I need to pay more attention to that because I'm sure I make that mistake a lot even though I know better.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,654 -
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    It feels like your line is fine, but I think it's a good exercise in a spot like this to write down all the hands your opponent might have played this way to find out how many you're beating and how many you beat. It's likely reasonable to include some very low frequency of the hand he actually had along with JJ and 99, although in game I would have also ruled them out.

    Thanks! I'm going to open Flopzilla tomorrow and do just that!
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Just eyeballing it, I suspect it may be quite sensitive to assumptions about how often V continues on the flop with backdoor flush draws.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "quite sensitive to assumptions". Could you elaborate on that?

    The number of combos you are beating is going to depend on how many flush draws you give your opponent. If they never continue with naked backdoor flush draws nor slightly dubious ones with some other values, for example, it's not going to be many.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • BartholomewBartholomew Red Chipper Posts: 24 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    The number of combos you are beating is going to depend on how many flush draws you give your opponent. If they never continue with naked backdoor flush draws nor slightly dubious ones with some other values, for example, it's not going to be many.

    Oh, okay. That's what I thought you meant, but I wasn't sure.

    I tried figuring out what hands villain might have on the river when he raises, and I ended up with AQs, A9s, QTs, KK, JJ, 99, which gives me 30% equity.

    Now, this part I'm not sure I did correctly (I really need to take some time this weekend learning how to use Flopzilla). I used the weight function on the pairs to see how that changed things because I'm assuming that corresponds with how often they have those hands.

    If they limp with pocket pairs half of the time, my equity is still only 46%. If they limp 30% of the time, my equity is 59%.

    The hand is much closer than I thought when I was playing because I gave villain zero credit for having those pairs. I don't hate my raise, but I think calling against an unknown villain is probably the better play, especially at 2NL where things seem to be a little more unorthodox.

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