KK Facing A Turn Shove

cmanganocmangano Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
Hi everyone, I am trying to incorporate what I am learning in Core 2.0 to my online games and trying to not be so nitty when it comes to making folds. Here is a hand I played this morning and I am curious what everyone thinks. Thank you.

Ignition Casino, 5NL, Zone Poker (no reads on anyone)

Villain starts hand with 78BB
Hero starts hand with > 100BB

Hero is dealt :Kd:Ks in the BB

Folds to button who raises 1x (.10), SB folds, Hero raises 2.5x (.25), button calls
Some thoughts here, my normal raise in this spot is 4x since I will be OOP and I want to extract as much value as I can, but given the small raise by button I figured he could be very weak and just threw out a min bet as a steal. I didn't want to make a big 3 bet with my Kings and have him fold, I thought a smaller bet gave him a better chance of calling. Thoughts on my 3 bet size?

Flop :3c:8s:4h
Hero bets 1/2 pot (.25), button calls
So I had just gone through the betting lesson, and I now know that in 3 bets pot the standard cbet is half the pot. This is a very dry board so I figure I am either way ahead or way behind. So i just made the standard half pot cbet. Thinking about it now, given that my read on villain was that he was weak and the dryness of the board, perhaps I could have gone for a check-raise? Or maybe this is just a standard cbet?

Turn :8d
Hero bets 3/4 pot (.73), button shoves for 68BB (3.40), Hero should...?
I didn't think this 8 was a bad card but certainly there are some in his range since he opened from the button. The shove here really confused me. Again I figure I am either way ahead or way behind, this board is as dry as it gets. Thoughts on my bet size? Would anyone check here? And most importantly, is this a call or a fold when villain shoves here?


  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 128 ✭✭
    Consider your questions. You are asking us to solve a hand for you when you do not have any reads yourself. Therefore, we will need to rely on the population tendencies of your limit. Against a micro stakes player who massively overbets the pot, you can find a fold most of the time.

    Your problem began preflop. When you put such a small 3-bet in, you neglect to think about SPR. On the flop, the effective SPR is about 7. This is not ideal for an overpair (the most common situation for KK). You will never be able to comfortably get the stacks in with a bet bet bet line which is what you will want to do.

    Instead of thinking of this hand in a vacuum, think about your 3-betting range preflop and you bet sizes you utilize. Whether you meant to or not, you sized down your 3-bet because you wanted action. This bet sizing may have changed if you had a different hand. As you move up, players will eat you alive if you employ this strategy.

  • cmanganocmangano Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    I appreciate the feedback. As I said my typical 3 bet here is 4x but yes, I wanted action. Would you recommend a 4x 3 bet or even larger?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,669 -
    With a min open I think 4.5x is fine here. As BF says, think about the SPR you're creating. Playing a pair OOP with a high SPR is not pleasant. And even against weak players, to reiterate another point made by BF, be very careful about tweaking sizing purely based on hand strength.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • cmanganocmangano Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Thank you. I definitely think I misplayed this hand preflop and that led to the rest of the hand.

    Just experienced another weird spot with KK.

    This time I get :Kd:Kh in the BB, Zone on Ignition again so no reads

    HJ (115BB) limps
    SB (40BB) completes
    Hero (100BB) raises 5x
    HJ calls, SB calls

    Flop :3s:3h:6h

    HJ checks, SB checks, Hero bets 3/4 pot, HJ shoves, SB folds and Hero should...?

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,669 -
    Math problem. Range HJ. Calculate equity versus that range.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,669 -
    Additional point: it's lazy to claim "no reads". I assume you've played on this site and at this limit frequently. You know something about your opponents.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • cmanganocmangano Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    You're right, I do play frequently. At this level I've seen just about everything.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,669 -
    cmangano wrote: »
    You're right, I do play frequently. At this level I've seen just about everything.

    Understood, at the lower limits the deviations in lines are huge. However, you can assign them relative frequencies.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • cmanganocmangano Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Since taking Core 2.0 and watching James' hand histories, I have realized I fold way too much at these limits. In the past this would have been an auto-fold for me (always assuming the players at these limits are passive and but they really aren't). I didn't think he would over-shove like this with a huge hand (like 3x or a set) so I called and he showed QQ.

    I appreciate your replies. BTW is there anything like Equilab online? I am on a chromebook and I can't download equilab so it's been next to impossible for me to calculate my flop equity against ranges.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,669 -
    My feeling is if you want to study poker seriously you either need a Windows box or emulator. That said, I think PokerCruncher runs on chromebook.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • cmanganocmangano Red Chipper Posts: 38 ✭✭
  • splashbrossplashbros Red Chipper Posts: 11 ✭✭
    Most notable problem is preflop. You shouldnt vary your 3-bet size base on your hand. Say you have vulnerable but good hand such as 88-JJ or even QQ to a certain extent, you would want to charge him bigger preflop to see a flop. So the size shouldnt change even if you are holding aces or kings because bottom line is you want to charge your opponent to see a flop while also keeping your range relatively polarised. if you only 3-bet small with premium, it would be easily exploitable especially when you move up in stakes.

    As played, flop and turn bet was fine. Although, you could consider a check on the turn as you are unlikely getting called by worse and your hand dont really need protection. Whether to call the jam (to me) is dependent on the reads and data i have against the opponent but if reference to population tendencies i dont think many are capable of bluffing here so i would fold
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree with what others have said about using a larger 3B size but for slightly different reasons. Your choice of size determines the pot odds and implied odds you offer your opponent.

    I would just KISS and always 3B 3x IP and 4X OOP

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