QQ against a Pro - A pile of hand reading questions

sfx_beigssfx_beigs Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
$.10-$.20 NL club game. Very aggressive game with a couple of known pros/coaches and a bunch of people studying. It's very early and this is my first time in the game so the only info I have are really who's a student and who's a coach.

Villain - HJ - $106.05 in chips
Hero - CO - $39.55 in chips

Villain (known pro/coach) opens to the table's standard $0.60
Hero - QhQs - 3bets to $1.80.
Villain calls.

Flop - $3.90 - Js 8h Jc

Villain checks
Hero bets $1.41
Villain check raises to $3.52
Hero calls.

Turn - $10.94 - 9c

Villain bets $7.29
Hero calls

River - $25.52 - Qc

Vilain checks.
Hero bets $12.76
Villain folds and throws a banana emoji at me.

My Questions/analysis:

1. How lucky did I get?
2. Preflop - Is AA or KK in his range? He opened and called. In most cases I'd say no but this is a pro who may be laying a trap. In an aggressive game where players will 3-bet in position wider than QQ+ is a trap more realistic or am I safe to remove AA and KK from his range?
2. On the flop check raise, my thinking was I block a lot of his jacks since I have two of the queens. So JTs is on the table as is J9s. KJs is also in his Open/call range. 88 is also bad. I also think he could be checkraising TT, 99, T9s as a semi bluff hoping I have AK or AQ that I just C-bet. As a student, is it feasible that he thinks I might hero fold an overpair? Would he check raise an underpair like 77?
3. The turn 9 doesn't change much. I'm still behind his Jx obviously. I'm now behind 99. But I'm still good against his draws and underpairs. Would he double barrel bluff someone who called his checkraise? At this point, he's got to think I peeled with an overpair at minimum. In typing this out, I'm not sure he's betting without a Jack.
4. On the river... Obviously the best card in the deck for me. But, he check folds where his Jx hands only lose to AQs and QQ. His T9 just got there. He's not folding J9 or 99. Now I'm wondering if he actually did have KK and between every draw in the world coming in and my action, I must have either AA, QQ or a draw that hit. Thus the check fold.

PS.... there's too much thinking in this game.

Thanks,
beigs

Comments

  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    1. Meh, reasonable chance you were ahead the whole way

    2. You dont block that many of his jacks... i think T9 makes the most sense for a bluff, and 88 wouldnt be a bad check raise for value because any jack is going to pay him off big time.

    3. Turn 9 means he at worst has a pair with T9.

    4. Very possible he folds some of those hands if he puts you on QJ or something like that.


    Getting too deep in the weeds with this one is difficult without knowing the exact dynamic of the game. I have to be honest though, im not sure i trust your description of the game dynamic. This guy is a pro? Why is he playing 20NL? Hes not making a living playing 20NL, i can tell you that. Is this some kind of a student game in a stable? Like there might be some layers of meta that no one outside of that game is going to be able to unpack. Sometimes you just have to say "this is what i think his range is" and accept that youll never really know exactly what his range is and just make your decisions based on your best guess. Someone outside the situation mught be able to point out some details as i have but ill never be able to guess his range as well as someone in the situation can.

    One exercise i like to do in those moments of high uncertainty is to try several different ranges for your opponent. Start with your best guess and then see how far off your best guess for his range can be before your play becomes unprofitable. That can sometimes give you a high degree of confidence in uncertain situations, or it can help you realize that the situation is so indifferent that its not going to affect your long term profitability as much as other situations will where you could generate autoprofit
  • sfx_beigssfx_beigs Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
    Ori13_TTV wrote: »
    This guy is a pro? Why is he playing 20NL? Is this some kind of a student game in a stable?

    Yes. It's a study group with coaches. He's one of the coaches. There's a part of me that thinks he was testing me since it was my first time playing and it was within the first ten hands of the night.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,310 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That coach generally uses a banana to signify a bet sizing or wagering error; for instance this hand or when he throws them at liberal cold calls. (That said, it's a pretty funny detail to the hand.)
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭✭
    I need to play in this game so I can upgrade my GTO banana throwing game.
  • sfx_beigssfx_beigs Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
    @persuadeo. What was/were the sizing/betting error(s)? The C-bet I made was small but that was in part to wondering if I'd induce a C/R bluff. Of course once the C/R happened I started second guessing myself after that. I definitely did not have confidence in my plan as evidenced by the scattered questions in my analysis.
  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    edited July 31
    Theres going to be a lot of dynamics in this game that outside observers arent going to be aware of or helpful with. Its very possible that the check raise was simply meant to exploit your sizing on the flop knowing that it puts the range you take that sizing with into a difficult spot. Or maybe it was meant to let you know where the mistake was... or maybe he had 88, who knows.

    If hes a coach in your group, maybe you should just ask him
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,310 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @sfx_beigs I'll let him respond so you can get it from the horse's mouth.

    @Ori13_TTV every table will have some dynamic, even if it's not noticed. It's important to not make that a primary driver for analysis.
  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    @Ori13_TTV every table will have some dynamic, even if it's not noticed. It's important to not make that a primary driver for analysis.
    right, but there are times when it makes a difference and i can definitely say that when i played against my former coach, there was a dynamic that we played hands against each other in ways we wouldnt play against anyone else just because we knew eachother's strategy
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    sfx_beigs wrote: »
    There's a part of me that thinks he was testing me since it was my first time playing and it was within the first ten hands of the night.

    Yes, this was part it. As persuadeo mentioned above, most bananas I throw are about bet sizing. No one has mentioned it (possibly hidden in the formatting of your post) but it was your half-pot bet on the river when you start with one pot-sized bet remaining.

    I'm not one of those "not a thing" people; use any size on any board or spot you like, just have a good reason for it. But whenever I see a bet where someone can't likely construct a good range for that size, I'm very likely to throw a banana.

    On the river here, I doubted you'd have a good justification for 1/2 pot. The positives for a size less than all-in are the difficulty of finding enough bluffs and the ability to bet more thinly for value. But then it's likely easier to construct a range that bets 1/3 pot.

    The big challenge for any size less than all-in is that you give me an additional strategic option (raising) and you now have to evaluate the EV of betting thinly for value vs checking behind, bet-calling a shove, or bet-folding to a shove.

    So the easiest range construction option for you on the river is to either shove (and find bluffs, perhaps using some hands like AcAx and KcKx and others depending on how wide you'll bet for value) or check behind.
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 302 ✭✭
    Fish or reg, student or pro, everybody has a range. V is cold calling with relative position pre against a LP 3B. If you don't have a perceived range constructed for this formation, stop playing and go construct one! Having ranges constructed before the game starts make it easier to target ranges and choose bet sizings. You don't mention if this is 6max or full ring so it's hard to help you. You also have no info on V. Saying he's a pro means nothing except he's probably studied.
  • porterporter Red Chipper Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    edited July 31
    blindraise wrote: »
    Fish or reg, student or pro, everybody has a range. V is cold calling with relative position pre against a LP 3B. If you don't have a perceived range constructed for this formation, stop playing and go construct one! Having ranges constructed before the game starts make it easier to target ranges and choose bet sizings. You don't mention if this is 6max or full ring so it's hard to help you. You also have no info on V. Saying he's a pro means nothing except he's probably studied.

    It's HJ open/call vs CO 3-bet (no cold-call). It makes no difference if it's 6-max or full ring.

    I don't understand this type of response to hand histories, which seems to be relatively common in forums. One can reply helpfully in generalities absent the context of specific reads, player profiles, or even stakes. More than enough context is given here.
  • sfx_beigssfx_beigs Red Chipper Posts: 74 ✭✭
    porter wrote: »
    but it was your half-pot bet on the river when you start with one pot-sized bet remaining.

    Thanks. A big problem I have is definitely stack awareness. I'm a limit guy and never drilled that idea into my head. It's also a lot easier to gauge my stack with physical chips in front of me. I need to get in the habit of looking at stacks every street.

    That said... I waffled back and forth on my bet size. I have the effective nuts so I want to extract value. I wasn't sure if betting small and hoping to get a call from something like 2 pair would work or if betting big and hoping it looked like a bluff. I suppose if the hands I'm targeting for value are calling a half pot bet, they're likely calling a pot sized bet as well, especially give the stack size.
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 302 ✭✭
    Sorry for making it more confusing.

    If it's a HJ open shouldnt the HJ opening range vary according to how many players are at the table
  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    edited August 1
    blindraise wrote: »
    Sorry for making it more confusing.

    If it's a HJ open shouldnt the HJ opening range vary according to how many players are at the table

    No, it varies based on how many players are left to act behind you... in this case, its the same number of players left to act in 6max or full ring for a HJ open and presumably no limpers infront
  • blindraiseblindraise Red Chipper Posts: 302 ✭✭
    edited August 1
    So you have a HJ range, and said range doesn't alter depending on how many players are at the table.

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