Looking for some real advice on how to find live backers.

CallMePascCallMePasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 33 ✭✭
I'm a live player, I don't enjoy playing online much.
When I do play online, it's micro stakes just to practice the things I've studied.

I've had some good results in live games, the issue is that these results are all in €20 tournaments and no one really seems to care about them.
They're not posted or tracked anywhere either, so people don't have access to those results.
I do keep track of them myself.

I've played 105 of these tournaments in the last two years and have a ROI of 55%

I've also played around 20 larger tournaments so far, but no results there so far.
Which seems totally standard duo to the larger fields and higher variance they bring.

Where do I find someone who will be impressed by these numbers and would be interested in staking me?
I assume they're going to have to be poker players themselves.
Explaining variance to non-poker-players has proven nearly impossible for me.

How do I convince them that I'm a good investment?
I might not even be a winning player in cash games and large tournaments at the moment.
But I'm convinced that I will become a winning player with more practice.

And there's the catch 22.
Since Covid, the smallest live cash games that run here are 2/4, the minimum buy-in is €150, but I've been told time and time again that I should buy in for at least 100bb, meaning at least €400, which is a LOT of money for me.

My bankroll is currently around €2000, of which €1000 is reserved for planned tournaments.

I have some savings, which I could use, but it doesn't feel comfortable playing with that money.
I could have a cash bankroll of around €4000, leaving me with nearly no savings.
But I'm afraid I'm going to play poorly because I'm too afraid to lose the money.

So I need to play to get better and get results.
But I need results to get the money to play ...

I have a LF staking thread on 2+2, 0 replies in over a year.
I've asked around with the more serious poker players I know IRL, haven't found anyone so far.

I am able to sell percentages of the larger tournaments I play.
But I haven't found anyone who's interested in backing me for cash games. While I know the cash games here in Belgium are extremely soft.

I guess there's also some real fear on my side that I won't be able to beat them.

Any serious advice is appreciated.
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Comments

  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
    edited August 16
    Network network network

    I can offer some insight to why no one in poker wants to back you though:

    The first question I have though is about rake, what is the rake on those $20 tournaments? What about the rake on the tournaments youre hoping to find backing for?

    The sample size of 100 tournaments might as well be a sample size of 0, varience in tournaments is so mindbogglingly high that you could play an MTT every single day for 3 years and still not have the sample size to know your true winrate.

    The live tournament grind is vicious and not even that profitable for some of the best online crushers. Theres rake, travel, lodging, time...

    My advice, hire a coach or get on a good coaching site and learn to beat online microstakes tournaments so that you can actually build up the necessary sample size if you really want to get backing. Chances are, the reason you cant get the same results online is because youre not good. No offense, just the harsh reality of it, and thats the way potential backers are going to look at it as well.

    Maybe, once you have results in some micros at a good sample size, you can look into a CFP to get you some results in mistakes tournaments (be careful selecting a cfp though, best poker coaching for example seems more interested in keeping your deposit than actually getting you to beat the game, a good CFP will likely have a staking element to the agreement so they have some skin in the game as well.
  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
    edited August 16
    Check my edit, added a sentence or two at the end
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,833 -
    Switch the situation around. Under what circumstances would you back someone else? You'd want verifiable data, right? In the absence of such data, your only hope is a personal friend, preferably with plenty of cash.

    Further, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're hoping to use good results in low-stakes, live tournaments to get staking in live cash games? First, even if you had a reasonable sample size that could be verified, demonstrating skill in the former has very little relation to how well you'd do in the latter. Second, getting staking in live cash is notoriously difficult for a number of reasons, the simplest being that no stranger is ever going to do it because they'd need to accompany you to the card room every day to check your results.

    So if you're determined to take a staking route, by far the best option is to do so in online tournaments on a site with tracked data.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • CallMePascCallMePasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 33 ✭✭
    edited August 16
    Playing online isn't an option.
    Any other suggestions?

    I guess networking more is useful advice.

    I do believe I'm crushing the low stakes tournaments over a significant enough sample.
    The rake is 12.5% iirc. They average around 50 players so having a 55% ROI over 100 of these has to have at least some meaning.
    This is me playing 3 tournaments / week, for a live environment the sample isn't going to get much better over a 1 year period.

    The people playing these tournaments are roughly the same people playing the cash games.
    I have played the cash games, and people are horrible. They literally laugh at people who have done any studying such as reading a book.

    A lot of my tournament skills are transferable to cash games. They're not completely different games as most people seem to suggest.
    Yes there are big differences, there are big similarities as well.

    I've played around 150k hands online over the last 2 years I think.
    My last 20k hand sample I was beating 2NL zoom over 2bb/100 and 5bb/100 all-in EV.
    Note that zoom games are significantly harder than regular tables and I would probably beat regular 2NL tables for 10bb/100+
    I'm also fairly certain that 2NL online is a lot harder to beat than live 2/2 or even 2/4 games now while there is no 2/2 available.
    Live poker is just made to induce bad play. It's too boring to play correct pre-flop ranges and mistakes just start building from there.
    (I do play correct ranges, unlike 99% of the players I see in live games.)

    Again, playing online on a longer term is not an option for me.
    I play it to study, but I cannot play it for longer periods.

    I'm playing some spin & go's now, maybe I can build a sample large enough over several months to hold some meaning.

    I don't know since I'm not a professional player and I don't have the money.
    But if I were a professional player and I had the money, I would definitely be willing to invest it in someone if I could see that person is willing to put in the work to become a winning player, even if he's not a winning player yet.

    So if I saw someone like me, who's been studying for nearly 2 years and been playing as much as possible, yeah I might give them a chance.
  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
    edited August 16
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    Playing online isn't an option.
    Why not?

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,833 -
    I can only speak from personal experience, but any staking arrangement I've ever been involved in is with poker players I know well and whom I've seen play and/or who have a verifiable winning history in games for which the staking is requested. (And when I've been staked, the same has been true in reverse.)
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  • CallMePascCallMePasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 33 ✭✭
    Because I'm telling you it's not an option for me.

    I don't enjoy playing online.
    I've burned myself out several times trying it.
    Playing online is not what I want to be doing.

    I also believe playing online is very different from playing live.
    And playing a winning online strategy in a live game will most likely be a losing strategy in those live games.
    They require different sets of skills and I choose to focus on the live skill set since that is what I like doing.

    Most importantly though, I do not like playing online, I don't enjoy it.
    I love playing live poker, for many reasons that do not apply to online poker.
  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
    edited August 16
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    Most importantly though, I do not like playing online, I don't enjoy it.
    I love playing live poker, for many reasons that do not apply to online poker.

    Do you want to play for fun or do you want to play for money?

    You said youre willing to put in the work, but if the thoughtful and honest answer that i gave in my first comment isnt working for you, then it leads me to question if youre really willing to put in the work.

    At least not enough work to satisfy a real backer.
  • CallMePascCallMePasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 33 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I can only speak from personal experience, but any staking arrangement I've ever been involved in is with poker players I know well and whom I've seen play and/or who have a verifiable winning history in games for which the staking is requested. (And when I've been staked, the same has been true in reverse.)

    Yeah that's exactly the point of this thread.
    Trying to figure out some other options :)

    I'm taking the slow route now, just saving up money and using it to play poker when I can.
    I've been getting lucky lately, so I do have some bankroll, but 2 bad hands in a 2/4 game and it's all gone again.

    I do believe my results in those small stakes tournaments are pretty significant, since I can see the players in the cash games play the same poor strategies as the ones in the tournaments.
    But I also understand that from the outside they look very different.
  • CallMePascCallMePasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 33 ✭✭
    Ori13_TTV wrote: »
    Do you want to play for fun or do you want to play for money?

    You said youre willing to put in the work, but if the thoughtful and honest answer that i gave in my first comment isnt working for you, then it leads me to question if youre really willing to put in the work.

    Kinda rude ...

    I'm putting in the work.
    That doesn't mean I should go do something I do not enjoy at all.

    Live and online poker are very different games.
    There's not even any proof that playing online is going to make me a better live player. The circumstances are just too different.

    If I play online, I have less time to play live.
    I'm using all my available time to play live and to study.

    And like I said, playing online burns me out.
    I've tried it several times, it doesn't work for me.
    Not sure why that has you questioning my work ethic.
  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
    You asked for real advice on finding backers, thats the real advice. Its either the path that I laid out or something similar, or continue to play unbacked while you save up a roll to play for real money.

    If your goal is to play for money, sometimes you have to do things you dont like.

    If youre getting burned out online, i got news for you, youre going to get burned out in livd poker too, it just takes longer, it also hurts more when you get burned out in live poker because you end up questioning the last 5 years instead of the last 5 months. Maybe you should resolve to figure out why youre getting burned out online and solve that issue. I bet it has a lot to do with unrealistic expectations

    Also, stop playing spin and goes. Youre worried about different skillsets.
    Do have any idea what a sampld in spin and goes looks like? A sample size for spin and goes thats going to tell you anything is like 100,000 games. Youd be far better off playing SNGs or regular MTTs
  • CallMePascCallMePasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 33 ✭✭
    edited August 16
    Or maybe there's a 3rd option neither of us knows?
    Hence this thread.
    Ori13_TTV wrote: »
    Maybe you should resolve to figure out why youre getting burned out online

    Again, rude ... Please stop ... You literally know nothing about me.
    I know exactly why playing online burns me out, because I don't enjoy it. It has nothing to do with results or expectations.
    I just don't like playing online, I find it boring.
  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
    Also, there tons of evidence that playing online makes you better at playing live. Literally all the online pros who transitioned to live poker.

    Theres no evidence however that its possible to earn any money in live tournaments over a real sample size below the $500 buy in level... even 500 tp 1k range is pretty questionable in live tournaments
  • Ori13_TTVOri13_TTV PennsylvaniaRed Chipper Posts: 94 ✭✭
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,396 ✭✭✭✭
    Sorry, I think I need to be brutally honest. Don't take it wrong, these are genuine positive advises - a direct reality check.
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    Where do I find someone who will be impressed by these numbers and would be interested in staking me?
    But... your number aren't impressive at all !

    Making some money in group of friends (?) in 20€ live tourney and 0 success on "larger tournaments" (I guess they are still small stakes tourney aka less than 500€) don't show you as a winning player / don't show any number to be impressed of.
    A winning player would crush micro tourney and have records on bigger buy-in tourneys. This one would be interesting to back.

    Which leads too:
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    I am able to sell percentages of the larger tournaments I play.
    But I haven't found anyone who's interested in backing me for cash games. While I know the cash games here in Belgium are extremely soft.
    Also I'd expect that you won't find any backer, sorry...
    The reason is that backers expect a return on investment (or here, risk when you lose) - they don't back / buy shares for charity... Hence if you don't have any consequent positive, you're of no interest for a backer. Plus considering you mostly play micro tourney, what do they expect to win with their share? Too little to be of any interest... 😬
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    My bankroll is currently around €2000, of which €1000 is reserved for planned tournaments.

    I have some savings, which I could use, but it doesn't feel comfortable playing with that money.
    I could have a cash bankroll of around €4000, leaving me with nearly no savings.
    But I'm afraid I'm going to play poorly because I'm too afraid to lose the money.

    So I need to play to get better and get results.
    But I need results to get the money to play ...

    Considering a bankroll is important. And being comfortable with it too as it could otherwise leads to major leaks.

    But the issue is: you just don't have the bankroll to play live. You've a bankroll to play online small stakes or micro live games (usually among friends).
    (Considering a live cash games bankroll) Even at the lowest 1/2€ will need you to be able to devote at least 4000€ for your bankroll. And I'd rather advise to have a 12-15'000€ to be more and less protected against the variance (esp. if you aim to play at Viage/Bruxelles, where games can turn very wild at 1/2).

    If you don't want to play online to grind and build your bankroll, I'd advise you to ... work 🤷‍♂️.
    The old fashion way of earning money - making saving and building a bankroll.
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    But I'm convinced that I will become a winning player with more practice.
    No. Practice don't make player good.
    Sure, with experience you improve. But so slowly and so little - and will quickly be capped against studied players.
    If you want to be good, you need to be serious. You need to study. A TON. Read books, watch videos (free or paid content), take notes during your play, revise your past hands to see possible flaws/bad plays/under-optimized play, torture your hand reviews with Flopzilla or PIOSolver until you analyzed all possible scenarios and outcomes as well as how (and why) you should react in a way or another.
    At the end of the day, the only difference between a good and a bad poker player is the amount of studies and analysis they do off-table.

    If you are not ready to put at least 10 hours of serious active study / week, you're not ready for poker.

    I see you affirm you are studying for 2 years too... But how often (how many hours/week)? And how (method)?
    Furthermore, if you did study for so long, why didn't you improve since then? (At least, you didn't present any great success/improvement...)
    PokerPasc wrote: »
    While I know the cash games here in Belgium are extremely soft.
    Not really. I mean, yes they are, because they are small stakes games. They are not "extremely soft" or even softer that in Prague or New Orleans.
    PokerPasc wrote: »

    A lot of my tournament skills are transferable to cash games. They're not completely different games as most people seem to suggest.
    Yes there are big differences, there are big similarities as well.
    Yes and no.
    They are the same, but the stack depth (~15-50bb for tourney, ~80-500bb for cash games) makes them considerably different in a strategic point of view.
  • CallMePascCallMePasc BelgiumRed Chipper Posts: 33 ✭✭
    edited August 19
    To whoever runs this forum, the above kind of replies are why I stopped using it last time and why I'll stop using them this time.
    I can get any random [deleted] to tell me something can't be done. I honestly have 0 interest in these negative can't-be-done, only my way works types of posts ...
    There's literally 0 good advice in there, except for things I've already mentioned myself.

    Won't be reading/replying here again.
    If I want to get trolled I'll just stick to 2+2.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,396 ✭✭✭✭
    You got constructive feedbacks. Sorry if they don't fit with your dreamland, but they are the harsh reality you need to hear to turn better.
    Now You can either take them, question your situation and improve; or stick with your pride and reject them with disdain 😬🤷.
    As said pro coach @Christian Soto : Being able to be brutally honest is a key component of being able to improve.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,873 -
    CallMePasc wrote: »
    To whoever runs this forum, the above kind of replies are why I stopped using it last time and why I'll stop using them this time.

    Several of the people in this thread run this forum. I am one of them. I agree with the general answers and tones. Sorry, this is not what you wanted to hear.

    You want a path to staking? The essence of it is you are offering a product. It is a high risk product with only reasonably predictable ROI. You need to make this product appealing to someone.

    The salient points for them are:
    • Risk- variance for one
    • Risk- since this will likely be a new acquaintance risk in trusting you
    • Reward- Unknown even if you think it is known
    • The question in their mind: If this guy is good at poker, why does he need my money?







    This is what any backer will face.

    I can tell you in all the time I have been in this industry I have mostly done MTT swaps mostly for funsies or a one session shared BR with friends of equal skill, again mostly for funsies because the ride home from a game sucks
    • if One guy won, two lost
    • if Two guys one and one lost
    ,

    However there is shared misery and share joy when it is unanimous.

    The one and only serious backing I have ever done is with a long term friend, former student and massively winning player. I trust this person completely.

    So all this issues above:
    • Risk- variance for one
    • Risk- since this will likely be a new acquaintance risk in trusting you
    • Reward- Unknown even if you think it is known
    • The question in their mind: If this guy is good at poker, why does he need my money?

    Are all gone for me. Now why would such a good investment need backing? Divorces are expensive.

    So everything lined up for me and this person. I am not hopeful that you will find anyone. I am sorry.






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  • RussRuss Red Chipper Posts: 142 ✭✭
    This thread pretty much went exactly how I figured it would after the original post.
  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 152 ✭✭
    edited August 19
    Just catching up...

    Hmm let’s see” I’m an unproven player who believes I am better than I am. I don’t want to play online because it is hard and I can’t make a living in a hard game. I don’t want to ask for real help because when I got some I got my feelings hurt and said rude things.”

    Please give me dollars?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,833 -
    And I think this has run its course.
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This discussion has been closed.