NL20 ATs

Zsolti07Zsolti07 Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
My fold to 3bet is 67%. My question is: What should I do, to avoid that to be insta profit 3bet against me? I thought, ATs IP would be good to a call against a player with 12% 3bet stat (in BB 11,7).
I did flop the nut FD on a low board. Villain did cbet with 75% of pot. I have 44% equity against JJ+.
Wouldn't a shove allin raise have been good at flop?
And playing this way was bad?

Thank you,
Zsolti07

Villain (847 hands): 26/19/12 - 4bet:6 - Flop cbet: 42 - turn: 63 - river: 50


Hand Information
Holdem NL 0.10/0.20, 0.2 BB (5 handed).
Hand History converter courtesy of pokerhandreplays.com

Table Information
Seat: 1 Popota88 ($15.07)
Seat: 3 Duck791 ($11.18) Dealer
Seat: 5 StrigoiMaster ($20) Small Blind
Seat: 6 carter1co ($34.9) Big Blind
Seat: 10 HERO ($23.92)
Dealt to HERO
10H.png AH.png 

Preflop (Pot:0.3)
HERO    RAISE $0.6
Popota88    FOLD
Duck791    FOLD
StrigoiMaster    FOLD
carter1co    RAISE $2.2
HERO    CALL $1.6

Flop(Pot: $4.7)
9H.png 4H.png 2C.png 

carter1co    BET $3.37
HERO    CALL $3.37

Turn(Pot: $11.44)
9H.png 4H.png 2C.png AC.png 

carter1co    BET $8.43
HERO    CALL $8.43

River(Pot: $28.3)
9H.png 4H.png 2C.png AC.png 6C.png 

carter1co    BET $20.9
HERO    FOLD

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,396 ✭✭✭✭
    You want to avoid to turn into an auto-profit situation for Villain. But important for that isn't much the stat itself (like folding 67% to 3bet) but the relation of this stat with the sizing you're facing. (You should not continue the same % of the time if the 3bet is a min-raise or 10X. It all depends on the sizing / your pot odds).

    Also, another point, which is even more important playing low stakes, is Villain's range. It's ok to overfold (or overcall) if V doesn't have a balanced range.

    Talking about range: there are different way to build a range - mostly "polarized" a "depolarized" (also called "linear"). Just knowing a % doesn't help much - you also need to make assumption or educated guess on how his range is build (what combos in it).

    (Even if I'm no online player:) Last but not least: beware of stats. On one side you didn't precise how many hands you've on V : if you have played much with him, his stat can be biased (too high or too low) just because he ran hot or cold.
    On the other side, I'm not quite sure if his 3bet-% from BB also include is re-steal range (3bet against BU/CO open) ?? If yes, it might be an overestimated 3bet %.
  • Zsolti07Zsolti07 Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    You want to avoid to turn into an auto-profit situation for Villain. But important for that isn't much the stat itself (like folding 67% to 3bet) but the relation of this stat with the sizing you're facing. (You should not continue the same % of the time if the 3bet is a min-raise or 10X. It all depends on the sizing / your pot odds).

    The size didn’t escape my attention either. The standard in this pool is 2$ Oop, I wasn't sure in my decision because of that but I thought, the 2,2$ is not an extraordinary size.
    Red wrote: »
    Also, another point, which is even more important playing low stakes, is Villain's range. It's ok to overfold (or overcall) if V doesn't have a balanced range.

    Talking about range: there are different way to build a range - mostly "polarized" a "depolarized" (also called "linear"). Just knowing a % doesn't help much - you also need to make assumption or educated guess on how his range is build (what combos in it).

    I'm sure, that with these stats villain has a polarized 3bet range. I think, he 3bet in BB against the steals about 15% and against MP (Hijack) say 7% (but if he see, that I fold 67% of the time, against me maybe more).
    Red wrote: »
    (Even if I'm no online player:) Last but not least: beware of stats. On one side you didn't precise how many hands you've on V : if you have played much with him, his stat can be biased (too high or too low) just because he ran hot or cold.
    On the other side, I'm not quite sure if his 3bet-% from BB also include is re-steal range (3bet against BU/CO open) ?? If yes, it might be an overestimated 3bet %.

    You are right, against Hijack 3bet villain probably much less.
    And the stats: I'm in trouble often, if I have too less stats from villain, I don't know, how much should I to take into account. But now I had from villain 847 hands, it's maybe enough when it comes to 3bet stats. (It was 94 case in BB and from that has villain 11,7% 3bet)
  • Zsolti07Zsolti07 Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    And what do you think about the postflop play?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,396 ✭✭✭✭
    Zsolti07 wrote: »
    I'm sure, that with these stats villain has a polarized 3bet range. I think, he 3bet in BB against the steals about 15% and against MP (Hijack) say 7% (but if he see, that I fold 67% of the time, against me maybe more).

    How do you get that he 3bet polarized more than linear ?

    Just a big or low 3bet-% doesn't indicate the form of the range. So what are you other hints/stats to go that way?
    Zsolti07 wrote: »
    The size didn’t escape my attention either. The standard in this pool is 2$ Oop, I wasn't sure in my decision because of that but I thought, the 2,2$ is not an extraordinary size.
    Point is not if it's extraordinary (like too small or too big), but the price it lays. See:
    • (actual hand) You open 0.6, V 3bet to 2.2. Your pot odds are 1.6/(1.6+0.6+2.2+0.1) = 1.6/4.9 = 32.65%. You need at least 33% equity to +EV call.
    • (min raise) You open 0.6, V 3bet to 1.0. Your pot odds are 0.4/(0.4+0.6+1+0.1) = 0.4/2.1 = 19.04%. You need at least 19.5% equity to +EV call.
    • (huge 3bet) You open 0.6, V 3bet to 6. Your pot odds are 5.4/(5.4+0.6+6+0.1) = 5.4/12.1 = 44.62%. You need at least 45% equity to +EV call.

    This will change your range, as more equity you need, tighter you should play.

    Yet we still should address that a higher 3bet sizing will (should) also impact Villain's range and his bluff % (in theory).
    Which also impact how often you should bluff catch against his bluff.
    Zsolti07 wrote: »
    And what do you think about the postflop play?
    As played, it's just a mathematical question: did you have the right price to call with your FD?

    Also, you should address why folding on river?
    Probably because you were against a better AX? If so, then, why have you called preflop with a marginal A in the first place - as ATs isn't different to A2s then.
  • Zsolti07Zsolti07 Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    How do you get that he 3bet polarized more than linear ?
    Just a big or low 3bet-% doesn't indicate the form of the range. So what are you other hints/stats to go that way?

    I think, today a winner poker player needs to have a polarized 3bet range. As far as I know about villain, he played in 847 hands 26/19/12 with 15bb/100 winnings rate. I know, that 847 hands is not too much, but until I experience something else, I think, he is a good reg.
    Red wrote: »
    Zsolti07 wrote: »
    The size didn’t escape my attention either. The standard in this pool is 2$ Oop, I wasn't sure in my decision because of that but I thought, the 2,2$ is not an extraordinary size.
    Point is not if it's extraordinary (like too small or too big), but the price it lays. See:
    • (actual hand) You open 0.6, V 3bet to 2.2. Your pot odds are 1.6/(1.6+0.6+2.2+0.1) = 1.6/4.9 = 32.65%. You need at least 33% equity to +EV call.
    • (min raise) You open 0.6, V 3bet to 1.0. Your pot odds are 0.4/(0.4+0.6+1+0.1) = 0.4/2.1 = 19.04%. You need at least 19.5% equity to +EV call.
    • (huge 3bet) You open 0.6, V 3bet to 6. Your pot odds are 5.4/(5.4+0.6+6+0.1) = 5.4/12.1 = 44.62%. You need at least 45% equity to +EV call.

    This will change your range, as more equity you need, tighter you should play.

    Thank you, I didn't think of that.
    Red wrote: »
    Zsolti07 wrote: »
    And what do you think about the postflop play?
    As played, it's just a mathematical question: did you have the right price to call with your FD?

    Maybe on the flop yes. He could have some bluff cbets too and I can him float and if the fluss come, he will maybe pay me to some extent.
    Red wrote: »
    Also, you should address why folding on river?
    Probably because you were against a better AX? If so, then, why have you called preflop with a marginal A in the first place - as ATs isn't different to A2s then.
    You're right, it's no different. That's why I asked, how would I to avoid that to be insta profit 3bet against me?

  • ulysses27ulysses27 Red Chipper Posts: 130 ✭✭
    I think 847 hands plus win rate give you a good idea how this player plays. Vs bet sizing is very important. He bet 2/3 pot on every street and was more then willing to play for stacks. Is this normal for this player? Does he use barreling aggression to win pots? If not then you've hit top of his range. The A didn't slow him down and for KK QQ JJ 1010 it probably would at least a little bit on the river. If his 3 bet from the BB is really 12 then calling A10s probably has enough equity to call. I don't think shoving on the flop is a great idea. I haven't done the math but I'm guessing it's - EV. If you had straight and flush draws thats different but you don't.

    In the end I think you played it fine but ran up against the top of his range.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,396 ✭✭✭✭
    Zsolti07 wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    How do you get that he 3bet polarized more than linear ?
    Just a big or low 3bet-% doesn't indicate the form of the range. So what are you other hints/stats to go that way?
    I think, today a winner poker player needs to have a polarized 3bet range.
    This is a strong assumption which may leads you to very costly mistakes :-)
    Zsolti07 wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    Also, you should address why folding on river?
    Probably because you were against a better AX? If so, then, why have you called preflop with a marginal A in the first place - as ATs isn't different to A2s then.
    You're right, it's no different. That's why I asked, how would I to avoid that to be insta profit 3bet against me?
    It depends on the range you put Villain on. And it depends on your strategy.

    If you think that you're folding too often to 3bet, then you know what to study off-table.
    A forum will more be an exchange of more and less good/bad hints, advises and ideas (like here for example:https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/8652/3bet-calling-range). But it won't be much if you really want to improve.
    For that, you need adequate study material. Some are pro video/book, some are free:
  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 152 ✭✭
    Why are you focused on whether the villain has an auto-profit spot? Where is this line of thinking coming from?
  • Zsolti07Zsolti07 Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    edited August 24
    BFSkinner wrote: »
    Why are you focused on whether the villain has an auto-profit spot? Where is this line of thinking coming from?


    They teach, that the regs in micro fold too much to a 3bet. I remembered that from 67% it is auto profit, but now I just calculated, and I know now, that it's 75% (3x 3bet), and in this hand even more because the 3bet size (78,5%).
    My fold to 3bet is 68,5% so not autoprofit, but the better regs have much less than that. I'm always scared when I get a 3bet, because I think, villain see my f3bet stat and he push his 3bet range to the bluffs.
    In retrospect I can already see that in this hand was not required my 3bet but I still think so, that I fold to much to a 3bet and I don't know how to change it.
    What do you think about that?
  • BFSkinnerBFSkinner Red Chipper Posts: 152 ✭✭
    I can almost guarantee that regs at your limit are not 3-betting you with air nearly enough to consider that you are being exploited. While there may be some lite 3-betting, consider what hands they choose to do this with and how this range compares to the equity of your hand.

    Even at higher stakes, 3-bets are from a stronger range than we want to think.

    Focus on not calling out of position at 100bb stacks and not be afraid to 4-bet with value-oriented hands. If someone is getting way out of line and 3-betting you VERY often then tighten up your opening range and cut off the weakest part of this range.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file