NL20 Straight draw

Zsolti07Zsolti07 Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
PREFLOP: Button's first raise from BU was 60% that's why I did 3bet with 98s against him, I'm not sure, that it was good.
FLOP: I had a gutshot so i thought the cbet would not be bad. I got a minraise from the fish, maybe I should have here fold but the pot odds was only 17%, the pot was 67 bb and the effective stack was still 100, I assumed great implied odds.
TURN: My equity improved and although I was OOP, I couldn't fold for a half pot bet because we had still 50bb stack if my straight comes.

Thanx
Zsolti07

BU (117 hands): 33/23/9,7
BB (163 hands): 51/3/3,3

Hand Information
Holdem NL 0.10/0.20, 0.2 BB (6 handed).
Hand History converter courtesy of pokerhandreplays.com

Table Information
Seat: 1 FiShPLAyer1A ($20.08) Dealer
Seat: 3 HERO ($25.32) Small Blind
Seat: 5 spoonunique39 ($48.54) Big Blind
Seat: 6 71GR1573N ($20)
Seat: 8 BULGAAR ($34.43)
Seat: 10 wh00ami ($25.94)
Dealt to HERO
9H.png 8H.png 

Preflop (Pot:0.3)
71GR1573N    FOLD
BULGAAR    FOLD
wh00ami    FOLD
FiShPLAyer1A    RAISE $0.5
HERO    RAISE $1.8
spoonunique39    CALL $1.6
FiShPLAyer1A    CALL $1.3

Flop(Pot: $5.5)
JC.png 7S.png 2D.png 

HERO    BET $2.7
spoonunique39    RAISE $5.4
FiShPLAyer1A    FOLD
HERO    CALL $2.7

Turn(Pot: $16.3)
JC.png 7S.png 2D.png 6S.png 

HERO    CHECK
spoonunique39    BET $8.1
HERO    CALL $8.1

River(Pot: $32.5)
JC.png 7S.png 2D.png 6S.png 7C.png 

HERO    CHECK
spoonunique39    BET $32.4
HERO    FOLD

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,833 -
    What direct odds do you need to continue with a gutter? How does the SPR constrain the implied odds?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Zsolti07Zsolti07 Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    What direct odds do you need to continue with a gutter? How does the SPR constrain the implied odds?

    I need 8% potodds to continue without implied odds but I counted with Fold Equity and implied odds too (by the cbet). By the raise the potodds was 17%, without implied odds too much.
    The SPR was 4.35, pretty small for a gutter.
    The CORE curriculum teach, that the smaller the spr, the worse to play with a draw but it don't teach, to what extent?
    From how big SPR can I cbet this flop with a gutter and what moves were bad?


  • cxy123cxy123 Red Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    Fine preflop. I wouldnt bet always 3 bet 98 but I understand the point. Though once BB is cold calling a 3b - what do you think of his range? And what do you think of 98 vs that range?

    Flop - I think this is fine board to c-bet, once BB raises the hand is over, and it's a trivial fold. If you think BB is out line or playing a positional raise and you're welcome to raise but you can never call. But there are very few draws, which you have/block, making this just a fold.

    Turn - it looks close but I don't think you have > than 5;1 with implied odds which is what I would want to make that call. Keep in mind if you miss, you will always lose this hand. A pure blank lands on the river - are you ever leading as a bluff? You will be bluffing 1/3 pot - is V folding? Also you may lose to a few spades (AJ, KJ, QJ - maybe but I doubt 89ss) even if your hand hits.
  • Zsolti07Zsolti07 Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    cxy123 wrote: »
    ...Though once BB is cold calling a 3b - what do you think of his range?

    It is very difficult to give a range to this type of player. He showed his cards at the end and I would be surprised if it was in the range what do you give him.
    I think it doesn't matter in the long run, but it's funny, that I had odds to call on the flop and on the turn too against his concrete hole cards.
    Regardless, I understand, that my line had failures and thank you for the help.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,396 ✭✭✭✭
    Preflop
    All 3 actions fold/call/raise are valid. Considering BU being laggy, I rather prefer the raise and fight back at him to shut him down.

    But your sizing is not really good, too small. You're OOP, you should aim for ~4x (or even more, 4.5-5x, if you want a small polarized range; but in that case 98s is only a fraction of it).

    Flop
    You've a gutter, no bckd FD, and probably don't block any hand which could call you (TP, set, FD, combo draw). You but block some hands which may directly fold (99, 88). Not a happy situation.
    Considering it's the bottom of your range with almost no equity or SDV, if you want to be aggressive, I think I'd rather look to check-raise with it (and c-bet with the 3 other 98s combos because of the bckd FD).
    Yet this hand is really trashy, and I've rather start an expensive bluff with other combos which hold better equity and/or better blocker.

    The sizing is probably the worst you could chose. It's too big for a merged bet (you may prefer a 20-33% PSB) and too small for a polarized bet (looking for 60-80% PSB). It's awkwardly in the middle.

    Flop (facing the raise)
    Calling is the worst option. First of all, you don't have the right equity. The pot odds are really low (16.56%), yet a naked gutshot doesn't give you enough equity (around 9.25% for 1 street). So calling is -EV.
    Even if you assume HUGE implied odds, by calling you give away initiative. And you're OOP. Meaning you easily lose one street of betting to value bet your straight
    Plus if you miss turn (very very often), you will have to keep giving up chips to see the river - more dead money in the pot. And again, without initiative and being OOP.
    And we still haven't talked about the few reversed odds you have as V will have TP+FD sometimes too (here, :8S: is nasty).
    So no, you don't have the right direct odds, and you very probably hugely overestimate your implied odds.

    Raising is turning your naked gutshot into a big bluff (as you will have to keep betting turn ; hence probably playing for stack). Considering how bad this combo (no relevant blocker, no bckd equity), I'd need serious info that V is rather on the folding side and/or may raise IP with meh combo which won't be able to sustain too much heat (like QJo).
    ... Which I doubt, because it's micro stakes and V is probably a bad lag player (his sizing shows it). So he is surely not balanced - and, as the vast majority of micro/low stakes players, probably unbalanced value-heavy. Hence, lowering considerably your FE (which you really need if you want to b/3b with the intention to shove later on).

    Hence, except with info that V is spewying money or being stupidly aggro, folding is the only acceptable reaction against his raise.

    Turn
    FOLD!! You're burning money
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,833 -
    Zsolti07 wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    What direct odds do you need to continue with a gutter? How does the SPR constrain the implied odds?

    I need 8% potodds to continue without implied odds but I counted with Fold Equity and implied odds too (by the cbet). By the raise the potodds was 17%, without implied odds too much.
    The SPR was 4.35, pretty small for a gutter.
    The CORE curriculum teach, that the smaller the spr, the worse to play with a draw but it don't teach, to what extent?
    From how big SPR can I cbet this flop with a gutter and what moves were bad?


    Could you provide a direct quote on what CORE says about this? I suspect you may be misunderstanding something.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Zsolti07Zsolti07 Red Chipper Posts: 115 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Zsolti07 wrote: »
    The CORE curriculum teach, that the smaller the spr, the worse to play with a draw but it don't teach, to what extent?

    Could you provide a direct quote on what CORE says about this? I suspect you may be misunderstanding something.

    Based on what was said in the video (https://redchippoker.com/topic/stack-pot-ratio/) , I think the smaller the spr, the more the raw equity matters and the higher the spr, the more the implied odds. If I know right, I can broke with any top pair if the SPR is 3 or less but I still need a lot of practice to better understand its correct application.
    In this hand the SPR was 4.35 and I stayed in the game because of the implied odds.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,833 -
    Right but a low SPR produces low implied odds. Moreover, in this specific hand, it's pretty much guaranteed that if you bet-call flop, you'll be facing a big turn bet when you're only 8% on the flop to spike your gutter on the next card.

    Also, I think you may be confusing the preflop situation of shallow stacks with the more dynamic postflop situation.
    Moderation In Moderation

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