AK preflop in BB with lots of preflop action

cxy123cxy123 Red Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
Friendly home game for small stakes on an app but all players are serious and want to win.

Assumptions: All players are reasonably competent players at a 1/2 -2/5 live table who understand table dynamics, can reasonably hand range etc. No one is a pro though obviously. Players will squeeze preflop especially with dead money and 3b lighter to get to a heads-up situation. A preflop 3 bet is not out of the norm for the table at all. This was the first time anyone at the table limped all night.

Wanted to get some feedback here after some weird action preflop. Hero is in the BB with AKo

9 handed table

UTG (35bb) limps 1BB
MP1 Folds
MP2 (320bb) limps 1BB
LJ (210bb) raises 3BB
HJ folds
CO folds
BTN (90bb) 3 bets to 9BB
SB folds
BB (310bb) ?

Pot has 15BB.

How often do you Call vs Raise? I assume no one is folding.

If you raise - sizing suggestions? What about the fact that we are not closing the action and have a 300bb and 200bb (PFR) stack left behind us to act and we are out of position going forward?


  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,396 ✭✭✭✭
    You really don't want to go MW (sharing too much equity ; hard to bluff), completely OOP (reducing equity, hard to bluff), with an off-suit hand (losing some equity).
    Hence it's a clear 4bet. Near 100% of the time. Don't call.

    Sizing, around 3.5-4x. 36bb is nice as it taunts UTG too. And we can shove flop for around a PSB if BU call.
    (If BU 5bet-shove, then it really depends how wide he may 5bet; but probably you never fold even if you aren't that happy)
  • CriminalBizzyCriminalBizzy Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    Some thoughts that I had when I read this through...

    What is the UTG player up to? Limping in from that position usually means two things, A. Player really has no business being in the hand B. Player is hoping that someone does the betting for them and is planning to shove after a raise gets back to them pre-flop or will just be shoving on the flop. I think its reasonable in this situation to be extremely suspicious of the UTG player depending on the player pool and experience. Could they be trapping with a premium made hand or just trying to see a cheap flop with a made hand towards the bottom of their range. Either way if you call or raise, we should expect UTG to get it in or fold.

    I think its very likely that MP2 player will just be getting out of the way. They may have been wanting to see a flop with a mediocre hand. If they call a 3 bet or even a 4 bet then you have to start to question the true strength of their hand.

    Now we get to late position players... Its possible that the LJ could have raised to steal the pot but with four players still to act I don't think we can discount that this player is making an extremely light raise. Then the button 3 bets, may be lighter than the HJ but if this player is then we can't reasonably expect for this player to get to far out of line.

    A call means that we are likely going to be OOP against 2 - 3 players. A 4 bet means that its more likely that you could end up heads up but still be facing another player. I think you could go either way and the answer to if you should 3 bet or 4 bet depends greatly on two important factors, the player's tendencies and your table image.
  • John ValentineJohn Valentine Red Chipper Posts: 99 ✭✭
    Utg..I don't see calling with anything. This early in position means a raise or a fold. BB should 4 bet obviously. How much? 15 bb in pot, I see a raise of 35 to 40. Would not be surprised if Btn shoves here. So if I'm the BB and I continue with the 4 bet, I have to realize that I could be playing for my entire stack.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,833 -
    To me the most puzzling action is that piddly iso-raise thrown out by the LJ. I'm not keen on getting AIPF at 200bb, but against the BTN I think it's fine.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • CriminalBizzyCriminalBizzy Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    @TheGameKat in this scenario as described what would be the minimum sizing from the LJ that you would start to take the raise more serious? 4 BB? 5BB? 6BB? More?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,833 -
    Given this a home game, I'm assuming the OP has info that would allow them to determine what this little raise might mean. I'm simply baffled by its intended purpose, but it doesn't feel very strong. 5bb would be more normal here, I think.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • sfx_beigssfx_beigs Red Chipper Posts: 82 ✭✭
    I wouldn’t be shocked if the LJ raised 3BB out of habit and forgot to look at how many limpers there were. . (I was not the LJ... this time).
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 3,833 -
    Ha, fair point. Maybe Flopzilla will soon include a weighting function based on the probability someone is not paying attention.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 311 ✭✭✭
    This is an interesting spot. I'm not often a fan of cold 4-betting, but it feels like a scenario where you have to.

    You really don't want to put in 9 BB just to whiff the flop multi-way, OOP, with a capped range and plenty of stack left to play for.

    If you 4-bet, it puts a ton of pressure on LJ and he will have to fold a large chunk of his opening range, including all of his small to medium pairs that he could have otherwise set-mined with.

    In my mind, the real important question here is what sizing to use. This is where the complexity rears its head, because there are two (three, if you count the UTG limp) different stack sizes that we need to play against at the same time. I don't think the raise needs to be very large, since the action alone is so strong. My first instinct was to say something around 25 BB but I think this may be a little to compelling of a price for the LJ. I think 30 seems good - if only the button calls, you have a nice PSB left. If only LJ calls, you still have a pretty maneuverable SPR around 3. Though ideally they both just fold and you pick up 15 BB without having to deal with such issues.
  • cxy123cxy123 Red Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    Standard open is 3bb, limping is very rare. Very possible LJ didn't notice that there are 2 limps. More likely he has a hand that hands to see a flop, small chance he has TT+, AJ+ unless a misclick.

    Utg had lost most of his stack with AA to runner runner vs very laggy CO 2 hands prior and had yet to top up.

    BTN earlier in session 3b/gii vs the MP1 player. MP1 can be relatively wide at times. BTN showed 77. Iirc action there was mp1 open, BTN 3b, mp1 4b, BTN shoved. That was at about 100bb eff. Also BTN considers LJ as relatively wide at times and has 3b lighter vs LJ. Point being this 3b is not QQ+ type of 3b.

    If we 4 bet what do we expect to call? If one of the deeper stacks 5 bets are we just folding? Vs short stack and BTN we can gii I think fairly comfortably.

    If we call we risk going 3-4-5 ways to a flop oop. What are we doing if the action gets reopened by LJ?

    Assuming 3-4 ways to flop with either MP2 or LJ calling so we are fairly deep vs at least one player, what are we doing on
    AJT rainbow
    KT9 2 flush board - we likely have best but unlikely to get folds and unlikely to have better than 1p by the river on a dynamic board, especially multiway
    Qxx (anything with 3 unders)

    I assume we are praying for dry A high boards?

    My opinion this is a must raise expecting UTG to call ultra premium fold everything else. We are often flipping vs utg. MP2 I expect has PP like KK/AA or folds, so mostly folds especially with action behind. Does JT/88 from MP2 just call with 2 players behind still? Idk but I doubt it. Mp2 is the one player I would be concerned if calls or raises. First time playing with this player as well and MP2 is playing fairly tight so far (sub 20 vpip).

    LJ - I don't know. I would almost treat it as a limp. Unlikely a monster and likely a hand that wants a cheap flop. Might peel with stack depth but would understand vs a decent size raise SPR is shrinking. If LJ raises might need to consider folding - very uncertain what to do there.

    BTN - it is what it is. I go 35-40 bb raise and don't look back vs BTN.

  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 311 ✭✭✭
    cxy123 wrote: »
    If we 4 bet what do we expect to call? If one of the deeper stacks 5 bets are we just folding? Vs short stack and BTN we can gii I think fairly comfortably.

    I would agree. It becomes a fold if the dudes with the 200+ BB stacks raise, but easy to get it in against anyone else. I don't think you should see many calls at all, but you know the pool better.

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