Where should I start?

betwisebetwise Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
I just joined the RCP Pro Membership. I have been playing online poker for over 10 years Mostly Full ring games(25nl-200nl) on Full Tilt till the games died down.
I never could get the hang of 6max which I have tried for several years.(50nl) the best I could do is break even over several 100K hands on Pokerstars zoom.
My recent attempt is on ACR 50nl Blitz and I'm still break even.(230k hands)
I am also playing 10NL Blitz and I am doing well.(8.5bb/100 @ 30K hands) But I really want to move up to the higher games.
Where would the best place to start on RCP Pro? What would you recommend?
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    We're currently putting together some curated playlists that will likely help. To some extent it depends on where you see your current strengths and weaknesses, if you're playing on a site that allows HUDs, and so forth.

    So if you can give some more info on where you think you most need to improve, I can identify some specific series. As you'll see from this thread, we're getting very positive feedback on w34z3l's recent offerings.
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  • betwisebetwise Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Thank you for your help. ACR does allow HUDs, I have a HUD that I built myself using PT4.
    I would say my weaknesses are playing 3bet pots post flop, My BB defense preflop is somewhat tight(20%VPIP), Barreling in the right spots. These are some of the spots I am still working on in my game. My preflop game is pretty good but I know there are lots of other spots I need to improve. If it would help I could send you my stats from PT4.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    I don't play online cash, so you'll likely get a better diagnostic from someone who does. Feel free to post a position breakdown here for feedback.

    As featured in the above list, we have some new material in playing in 3-bet pots, as well as how you should get there in the first place.

    To get you started, we have something that is likely ideal:

    Jones. "3-Bet Pots".

    That's part of a really good 5-part series on population analysis, and it'd probably make sense to watch the whole thing.

    Happy to bounce further ideas once you're done with that, particularly since we have some new material in the pipeline. Of the extant group coaching videos I'd recommend in this context:

    Fitzgerald. C-Betting IP.

    Jones. C-Betting OOP.

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  • betwisebetwise Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Thanks for the help. I'll start on the 3-bet pots and I'll post my stats later. What is the best way to post the stats? screen shot?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are also many free content here and there. I strongly advise you look after "The Poker Bank" (also by Splitsuit) on Youtube.
    3bet is - among other themes - discusses on TPB: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+poker+bank+3bet
  • betwisebetwise Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    There are also many free content here and there. I strongly advise you look after "The Poker Bank" (also by Splitsuit) on Youtube.
    3bet is - among other themes - discusses on TPB: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+poker+bank+3bet
    Thanks. I’ve watched many vids on YouTube. Including the poker bank videos. I think there is something(s) more specific in my game that is holding me back from winning at the 50NL blitz level. I have no problem beating the 10nl blitz and there are no 25nl blitz being played on ACR. Tougher players a the 50NL probably.
  • betwisebetwise Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    I started off with the 3bet-pot player pool analysis video. I'm still going thru that video but I looked thru my database and it seemed pretty close to the numbers that Adam Jones got. The spot that is a little different is the fold to follow up after delay cbet. Would these fold% (IP=45%, OOP=49%) change the strategy to for the follow up cbet? Should I be more balanced esp. when villain is IP?

    g7qdsl0g2oa1.jpg


  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    This question in a vacuum has no meaning and no goal. Because you don't discuss other factors which have a major impact on you range and Villain reaction (action and range):
    • effective stacks
    • bet sizing
    • position of both V and H (yes, you make the difference between IP and OOP, yet IP isn't the same scenario if V opens from UTG or CO)
    • board texture
    • (bonus) any other players in hand?

    The stats you give is only the (very) tip of the iceberg :-)
    betwise wrote: »
    Should I be more balanced esp. when villain is IP?
    You shall ALWAYS play as balanced as possible - keep a right balance of bluff and value hands, and bet at the right frequency (based on range advantage and bet sizing).

    ONLY if you've notes on Villain you can deviate from a balanced strategy, with the sole purpose to exploit Villain's mistake tendencies (= exploitative play).
  • betwisebetwise Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    edited November 2020
    Red wrote: »
    This question in a vacuum has no meaning and no goal. Because you don't discuss other factors which have a major impact on you range and Villain reaction (action and range):
    • effective stacks
    • bet sizing
    • position of both V and H (yes, you make the difference between IP and OOP, yet IP isn't the same scenario if V opens from UTG or CO)
    • board texture
    • (bonus) any other players in hand?

    The stats you give is only the (very) tip of the iceberg :-)
    betwise wrote: »
    Should I be more balanced esp. when villain is IP?
    You shall ALWAYS play as balanced as possible - keep a right balance of bluff and value hands, and bet at the right frequency (based on range advantage and bet sizing).

    ONLY if you've notes on Villain you can deviate from a balanced strategy, with the sole purpose to exploit Villain's mistake tendencies (= exploitative play).

    Hi Red,
    Thank you for your input.
    My take from the "Player Pool analysis" Video are these are the exploitative areas in which we can take a exploitative line. I am assuming the data was for 100BB stacks and heads up vs unknown players. Adam Jones also went over the different board textures and bet sizing. However, He didn't go over the relative positions of H & V. I would assume that this should change how often I could use the exploitative line to delay cbet and follow up bet.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    Pretty sure Adam does address position, but those videos get pretty dense. He definitely has other videos where he explicitly addresses IP and OOP. FWIW that player pool playlist will soon be published as a sub-set of crash course on Analytic Exploitation. All PRO subs will have immediate access. It comes with explanatory text.

    One way you might like to get a handle on the IP vs OOP question is through these two Group Coaching Sessions:

    Fitzgerald. C-Betting In Position.

    Jones. C-Betting OOP.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    Here's an interesting definition of this troublesome term "balance":

    Balance is a by-product of playing every hand in our range at maximum EV

    ~ w34z3l
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  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    betwise wrote: »
    Hi Red,
    Thank you for your input.
    My take from the "Player Pool analysis" Video are these are the exploitative areas in which we can take a exploitative line. I am assuming the data was for 100BB stacks and heads up vs unknown players. Adam Jones also went over the different board textures and bet sizing. However, He didn't go over the relative positions of H & V. I would assume that this should change how often I could use the exploitative line to delay cbet and follow up bet.

    Sure! Being a good poker player is being able to make an educated guess. Better the player, better the educated guess (and EV).

    Looking for exploitative play and auto win in specific spot based on absolute position, is a first step to improve.
    You shall continue your studies; you've just started your journey down the Rabbit Hole
  • betwisebetwise Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Thanks for helping me out. I really appreciate it. It's been a tough road for me in beating the 6max games online esp at 50nl. If you guys are willing I would like some help breaking down my game and finding where my problem is. Like I said before I can beat the 10nl game so I'm thinking its some frequency issues. Please give me some ideas of what I could post that would help identify my problem.

    Thank you,
    Ash
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    Hand histories usually help.
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  • betwisebetwise Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Hand histories usually help.
    I don't mind sending my database or do you mean specific hands. I can also post my stats.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    betwise wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Hand histories usually help.
    I don't mind sending my database or do you mean specific hands. I can also post my stats.

    People run diagnostics in different ways. When I coach, I always want to see positional VPIP/PFR/RFI, and since I mostly coach tournament students I like that broken down by stack depth. But for me, the most effective approach is to leakfind using HHs from entire tournaments.

    Since you're not retaining anyone in a professional capacity, I think you'd get valuable feedback here simply by posting a few hands where you felt you got lost. We typically make mistakes in spots where we're not sure what we're supposed to do.

    tl;dr specific hands plz.
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  • betwisebetwise Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    Yatahay Network - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    BTN: 356.98 BB
    SB: 100 BB
    BB: 100 BB
    UTG: 120 BB
    Hero (MP): 133.86 BB
    CO: 90.36 BB

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:diamond: T:spade:

    fold, Hero raises to 2.86 BB, CO calls 2.86 BB, fold, fold, fold

    Flop: (7.22 BB, 2 players) 4:heart: Q:heart: 3:spade:
    Hero bets 2.26 BB, CO raises to 11.06 BB, Hero calls 8.8 BB

    Turn: (29.34 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond:
    Hero checks, CO bets 22 BB, Hero calls 22 BB

    River: (73.34 BB, 2 players) K:diamond:
    Hero checks, CO bets 36.66 BB, fold

    CO wins 69.68 BB

    Here is a hand that I played today vs unknown V.
    Vs unknowns I usually give a range MPvs cO of about 8% (JJ-55,AQs-ATs,KQs-KJs,QJs,JTs,AJo,KQo) if you disagree with this range let me know.

    I decided to cbet the flop small to keep smaller pairs in V range. (or do you think its better to check) Usually in this spot I will follow up the turn with a 1/2 pot bet(when the board has draws) and check fold the river.
    when V raised I think his range has Axh and TPTK.

    The turn my thinking was a little fuzzy but I believe he would bet his FD and TPTK.

    The river seemed like a bad card. I folded. But I think I should fold unimproved if V never bluffs here enough.

    Here are some of my database stats:
    nm419f9ym7y7.jpg


  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    edited November 2020
    I think you can make an argument for a small c-bet or a check, but when you get that big raise, what do you expect is going to happen when you call? It's true you can't bet-fold every time you flop an underpair to the top card on board, but your hand here has no redeeming features.

    Look at it this way. If your opponent is good enough to recognize they likely have range advantage on this board, or they actually have the FD, or they regard flush outs as bluff outs, or they flopped a set, or.... In aggregate, how often are you going to win this hand? I'd suggest it's never enough to call the flop raise. If I do get to the turn, I fold to that huge bet without thinking about it.

    Trying to play a condensed range against what your opponent tells you is a polarized range, when OOP, with no robust or backdoor equity, is probably the least profitable spot in poker. So when it arises, I think it's wiser to get out early. If you bet-fold flop are you frequently folding the best hand. Yup. Doesn't matter.

    Concerning your assigned range for villain, at 133bb effective I would expect it to be considerably wider than you assigned, but obviously it's very opponent dependent.
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  • betwisebetwise Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Concerning your assigned range for villain, at 133bb effective I would expect it to be considerably wider than you assigned, but obviously it's very opponent dependent.

    Thank you GameKat. That makes lot of sense. in this spot sometimes I call and sometimes I fold. How wide of a range should I be giving V in this spot? how about with a 100BB stack?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also:
    • Is V value or bluff heavy? Rare are those who are able to be even a little balance, so knowing V's tendency is a formidable info to adjust your reaction.
    • Observe! How often V check-raise? And does this big sizing give any info?
    • When facing a raise, you want to call with hands which block V value hands and unlock V bluff hands. Here TT is rather neutral as it doesn't block/unlock much. In comparison, A4 probably makes a better bluff catcher as it blocks V best set 44.
    • Similarly, you don't want to call with all your marginal holdings. If you call with TT, it means you also call - at least - with JJ, all your QX, QQ (or raise?), KK and AA. Plus some other combos like Ah4h or AhKh, etc. Aren't you call too wide?
    • bet/fold is a formidable tool at low stakes. Look this strategy up. Also here is an interesting old thread with major RCP coaches https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/90/when-to-use-bet-fold

    TT is a clear bet/fold.
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    If your opponent is good enough to recognize they likely have range advantage on this board
    I'm not that sure... because:
    • Hero has more sets (sharing 33 and 44; but only H hold QQ).
    • Both H and V have the same 2P 43s (except if V is a station to call with Q3-Q4 or H a tight opener not opening 43s).
    • Hero has better QX and have all over pairs (KK+).
    • H has more nut FD (CO should 3bet AKs and some AJs), but V probably have more FD overall (calling with more meh FD).
    • Same considering OESD and gutshot.

    IMHO this board is better for Hero. We want to bet often and small-ish
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    Red wrote: »


    I'm not that sure... because:
    • Hero has more sets (sharing 33 and 44; but only H hold QQ).
    • Both H and V have the same 2P 43s (except if V is a station to call with Q3-Q4 or H a tight opener not opening 43s).
    • Hero has better QX and have all over pairs (KK+).
    • H has more nut FD (CO should 3bet AKs and some AJs), but V probably have more FD overall (calling with more meh FD).
    • Same considering OESD and gutshot.

    IMHO this board is better for Hero. We want to bet often and small-ish

    Yeah, okay, I agree with that. But when we get raised, V is probably claiming they're polarized, I think. Like it's somewhat strange to raise top pair here.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    betwise wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Concerning your assigned range for villain, at 133bb effective I would expect it to be considerably wider than you assigned, but obviously it's very opponent dependent.

    Thank you GameKat. That makes lot of sense. in this spot sometimes I call and sometimes I fold. How wide of a range should I be giving V in this spot? how about with a 100BB stack?

    Do you have stats on this specific player? If so, construct the range from that.
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  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Yeah, okay, I agree with that. But when we get raised, V is probably claiming they're polarized, I think. Like it's somewhat strange to raise top pair here.

    Yeah, such a big sizing is in the pole zone. Yet even if TT beats his bluff, it doesn't mean you have to call with ALL your bluff catcher. Only a part of your range will call, otherwise you're calling too often.

    If Villains is balanced and/or if you've no info on him, you shall use the MDF (Minimal Defense Frequency) to see how often you should call. Best (free) article I read was this one from Upswing: https://upswingpoker.com/minimum-defense-frequency-vs-pot-odds/

    Edit / PS: Yes, c-r a TP here would be strange and an overplay. Yet some (bad) V will do it - or donkbet with it.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    edited November 2020
    Red wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Yeah, okay, I agree with that. But when we get raised, V is probably claiming they're polarized, I think. Like it's somewhat strange to raise top pair here.

    Yeah, such a big sizing is in the pole zone. Yet even if TT beats his bluff, it doesn't mean you have to call with ALL your bluff catcher. Only a part of your range will call, otherwise you're calling too often.

    If Villains is balanced and/or if you've no info on him, you shall use the MDF (Minimal Defense Frequency) to see how often you should call. Best (free) article I read was this once from Upswing: https://upswingpoker.com/minimum-defense-frequency-vs-pot-odds/

    Agree 100% with your first paragraph and not with your second (at least if you're recommending adhering to MDF).

    I think a great exercise for OP here would be to construct a continuance range against the large flop raise.

    As to MDF, it's an interesting guideline, but when we're OOP it's actually okay (and probably necessary) to underdefend relative to MDF. The point is we likely play a majority of our hands IP. We can therefore give up "too much" relative to MDF when OOP, since we get it back and more when IP. In other words, being auto-exploitable OOP isn't actually a problem, and our defending frequency should be low enough to put us in the auto-exploitable zone. To put it yet another way, how are we going to generate a difference in our continuance frequencies OOP and IP if we don't take such a step?
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    Red wrote: »

    Edit / PS: Yes, c-r a TP here would be strange and an overplay. Yet some (bad) V will do it - or donkbet with it.

    V is IP, no c-r/donk possible.
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  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I think a great exercise for OP here would be to construct a continuance range against the large flop raise.
    Absolutely. I start such exercises long ago with the great @kagey . This is an important part of off-table studies IMHO.
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    As to MDF, it's an interesting guideline, but when we're OOP it's actually okay (and probably necessary) to underdefend relative to MDF. The point is we likely play a majority of our hands IP. We can therefore give up "too much" relative to MDF when OOP, since we get it back and more when IP. In other words, being auto-exploitable OOP isn't actually a problem, and our defending frequency should be low enough to put us in the auto-exploitable zone. To put it yet another way, how are we going to generate a difference in our continuance frequencies OOP and IP if we don't take such a step?
    Underdefend makes sens as that we are losing EV just by being OOP, so some marginal holding will turn -EV once OOP.

    Getting it back isn't that easy. And other factors are to be taken in account too. For ex. if V IP is aggressive, underdefending leads to lose too much equity. Or how V constructs - correctly or not - his raising range. Or the table dynamic: if we have nits on our right and sticky and/or aggressive players on the left. Or ...

    We can't always chose our setting. How are we going to generate the difference (and make money)? Observation, analyze, adaptation. And usually more aggression.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    Agreed, but we choose to play more hands IP than OOP simply as a by-product of positional variations in our range.

    Note too, this reciprocity doesn't imply we're going to "make back" a deficit generated by low OOP continuance against the same opponent. I've never analyzed a database in this way, but it seems plausible that we have different bb/100 against different relative seats.
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  • betwisebetwise Red Chipper Posts: 28 ✭✭
    edited November 2020
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Do you have stats on this specific player? If so, construct the range from that.

    Wow, that's a lot to take in. As far as the player stat, I have zero stats on this player. He is unknown.

    Let me see if I understand what was discussed here....
    1. It's okay to fold OOP with marginal holdings vs a unknown player.
    2. We should continue with OP and QX, plus.
    3. Vs aggressive players we may need to continue with more hands.(how much more?)
    4. We can give up a lot OOP and make it up when IP. (what should I defend IP?)


  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    I think that sums it up, so now it's your turn to do some work. (Although what is "OP" in your point 2?)

    In this precise spot, take your opening range, then figure out what you're going to do with the different parts of it on this board. You need that baseline before you start worrying too much about adjustments vs specific player types, although one important issue as discussed above is villain's preflop calling range. When I'm doing this work and have no other input, I usually look at ranges Miller gives in The Course and modify if I think they're off for my player pool.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,204 -
    Incidentally, if you haven't seen it yet, the Jones video we published two days ago on playing OOP as the PFR will likely address a lot of this.
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