EARLY ACCESS: PRO GTO Ranges

TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
edited April 2 in PRO Products
Hello PRO subscribers:

More new stuff to announce!

As you may have noticed, over the last few months we've turned our attention increasingly towards GTO elements and solutions of NLHE. This is reflected in our GTO Crash Course released earlier this year, as well as some of our group coaching sessions, such as kenaces popular overview of GTO simplification.

This is a direction we will continue to pursue in 2021, and as a prelude to that material, we are providing early access to GTO Ranges. Our research team has been buried in Monker solutions for several months now, and this is the first release of the fruits of those labors.

As with the new CORE material, we're still tweaking the presentation, but figured you'd like to see the ranges themselves and get a taste of what's coming in the next few weeks and months. This first drop is for 6-max and assumes typical online parameters. The extension to 8-handed play is by nature more complex, but we're currently working on that with a first quarter 2021 release date scheduled.

As ever, feedback is welcome.

Thanks ~ Kat
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Comments

  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 657 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2020
    Is BB the only position where we call open raises? All other positions just have a 3bet-or-fold chart.

    Edit: never mind. But could you elaborate on why we never call except in the BB?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    edited November 2020
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Is BB the only position where we call open raises? All other positions just have a 3bet-or-fold chart.

    Edit: never mind. But could you elaborate on why we never call except in the BB?

    Essentially it's a simplification that gives up minimal EV, but frees up a lot of mental energy for postflop planning. So one can certainly sprinkle in some calling as an exploitative deviation, but our silicon overlords really don't seem to like it much. Or, perhaps more accurately, they don't yell at us if we choose to simplify through a 3-bet-or-fold simplification.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    Incidentally, calls are included in the new CORE ranges. I'm endeavoring to discover the difference in philosophy.

    https://redchippoker.com/courses/core-ranges/
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  • ROI RUINERROI RUINER Red Chipper Posts: 234 ✭✭
    Wouldn’t flats in the BU due to absolute position be higher EV than 100% 3bets even with rake? We get more opportunities to benefit from position in the long term.
  • AceAceFoldAceAceFold Red Chipper Posts: 1
    why did you use monker instead simple preflop holdem? seems second one is much more precise for preflop, since it used more smart bucketing
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    edited November 2020
    ROI RUINER wrote: »
    Wouldn’t flats in the BU due to absolute position be higher EV than 100% 3bets even with rake? We get more opportunities to benefit from position in the long term.

    If we assume that the opponents are somewhat competent and thus have reasonable ranges, the answer from the machines is apparently "no". That is, the gain in EV is tiny. We're all pretty surprised by this, tbh.

    To address why some of the new CORE ranges do include flats, it's designed to exploit the fact that in live play in particular we're dealing with weaker players. Additionally, in full ring one has to consider the tighter ranges from EP which makes flatting with hands like JJ/QQ in LP an option that needs to be included.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    AceAceFold wrote: »
    why did you use monker instead simple preflop holdem? seems second one is much more precise for preflop, since it used more smart bucketing

    Apparently this decision was driven by our desire to include multiway solutions.
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  • ROI RUINERROI RUINER Red Chipper Posts: 234 ✭✭
    edited November 2020
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    ROI RUINER wrote: »
    Wouldn’t flats in the BU due to absolute position be higher EV than 100% 3bets even with rake? We get more opportunities to benefit from position in the long term.

    If we assume that the opponents are somewhat competent and thus have reasonable ranges, the answer from the machines is apparently "no". That is, the gain in EV is tiny. We're all pretty surprised by this, tbh.

    To address why some of the new CORE ranges do include flats, it's designed to exploit the fact that in live play in particular we're dealing with weaker players. Additionally, in full ring one has to consider the tighter ranges from EP which makes flatting with hands like JJ/QQ in LP an option that needs to be included.

    I can see the pros and cons. So this is theory based.

    From an exploitative standpoint if (6max) MP is an avg reg and BB is a massive fish and I am on the button with 98s I don't want to 3bet and get the fish out of the hand.

    If I am not fortunate enough to find a good table with a fish or two and am up against competent regs (but not world beaters) then I am bringing the pain to the table controlling the game dynamic AND uncapping my entire preflop range with a 3bet/fold game.

    Going to check it out with an open mind. I can see it in theory.

    Someone is playing this strategy vs me then my 4bet range gets a little crazy. That is generally my default vs aggressive LP 3bettors.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    I can definitely see exploitative deviations against specific opponent types.
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  • Michael86Michael86 Red Chipper Posts: 1 ✭✭
    Do you think these ranges are good for zoom/fast forward pools? Any chance we could see a video with these ranges being used and explained?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    Yeah we'll have lots of additional content in the coming months both using these ranges and fleshing them out into a complete, multi-street strategy.

    I'd say they'd be ideal for Zoom. When you have minimal info about your opponents, GTO is the default anyway.
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  • ROI RUINERROI RUINER Red Chipper Posts: 234 ✭✭
    I played a 100nl session using this strategy and these ranges. It was 5 regs (counting me) and a 78% VPIP whale with a short stack. I didn’t pay the whale much regard due to stack size and I had position on him.

    It was pretty clear I was giving the nitty regs fits.

    I like the strategy. I’ve tried 3bet or fold before but my ranges weren’t correct for it. These GTO ranges are great for it.

    Hoping you guys do the same with MTT stack sizes as well.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    ROI RUINER wrote: »
    I played a 100nl session using this strategy and these ranges. It was 5 regs (counting me) and a 78% VPIP whale with a short stack. I didn’t pay the whale much regard due to stack size and I had position on him.

    It was pretty clear I was giving the nitty regs fits.

    I like the strategy. I’ve tried 3bet or fold before but my ranges weren’t correct for it. These GTO ranges are great for it.

    Hoping you guys do the same with MTT stack sizes as well.

    Interesting challenge. We have the tools. The issue is always deciding what depth and the ante structure, and making some decision about the level of ICM tax.
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  • PtpokerPtpoker Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    In the charts under "WE OPEN RAISE UTG" facing a BTN 3-bet the chart says "3Bet". I just wanted to clarify it is supposed to say 4-Bet in the actual chart? And to check if the chart is correct. I am truly feeling I am becoming a better player. Still break even at 10NL, but really starting to get the hang of 2-5NL. Most importanly, I am learning and enjoying my long lost hobby. I wish all of you at RCP the best of christmas, and am looking forward to lots of great content in 2021! :) Thank you!
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    Ptpoker wrote: »
    In the charts under "WE OPEN RAISE UTG" facing a BTN 3-bet the chart says "3Bet". I just wanted to clarify it is supposed to say 4-Bet in the actual chart? And to check if the chart is correct. I am truly feeling I am becoming a better player. Still break even at 10NL, but really starting to get the hang of 2-5NL. Most importanly, I am learning and enjoying my long lost hobby. I wish all of you at RCP the best of christmas, and am looking forward to lots of great content in 2021! :) Thank you!

    That's correct, good eye.
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  • mbecks83mbecks83 Red Chipper Posts: 79 ✭✭
    Hey, these ranges and the whole 3bet/fold idea are really interesting.

    One thing that is really nagging me though - in the early positions (UTG, HJ, CO) what happened to suited-connectors...and how do we justify replacing them with hands like suited kings, queens, and jacks (down to J7s).

    For example: the CO chart is telling us to fold 98s but open Q5s!

    I guess this is something to do with preferring high card value over implied-odds? This is something that's usually recommended for low SPR situations. Yet here we have really high SPRs coming from 2.5x opens (one caller = pot of 6.5bb maximum = SPR of 15!)

    I guess the other reason could be blocker value?

    Would love to hear some feedback on this point. Overall awesome work though.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    Fascinating, isn't it. As we started to compile these results, most of us were quite surprised by some of the details of the more marginal hands. Unfortunately The Machines don't provide a written report explaining why these decisions are reached, but I suspect you're on the right track. My takeaway is that Monker cares far less about board coverage than humans have been trained to over the last few years.
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  • facingthelake1188facingthelake1188 Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
    Hi Kat, I recently came across an old RCP page entitled Infographics: Preflop Ranges started by Doug Hull back in 2016 and taken over by yourself around 2019. I can’t seem to be able to download the range graphics (error message 404). Is it possible for you to email me the files to supplement my studying of the Math & Preflop Workbook ranges chapters? Thank you Larry
    FYI, I am currently working through the Preflop Workbook and then plan on jumping into the Postflop Workbook before resuming my membership in Core 2.0 (great material, perfectly and simply explained) My email is:
    [email protected]
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    Hi Kat, I recently came across an old RCP page entitled Infographics: Preflop Ranges started by Doug Hull back in 2016 and taken over by yourself around 2019. I can’t seem to be able to download the range graphics (error message 404). Is it possible for you to email me the files to supplement my studying of the Math & Preflop Workbook ranges chapters? Thank you Larry
    FYI, I am currently working through the Preflop Workbook and then plan on jumping into the Postflop Workbook before resuming my membership in Core 2.0 (great material, perfectly and simply explained) My email is:
    [email protected]

    Hey Larry:

    Those ranges have been superseded by our more recent ones in CORE and PRO and, as far as I know, are no longer available anywhere. Our publicly-available ones can be downloaded through this page:

    https://redchippoker.com/bulletproof-beginners-guide-preflop-open-raising/

    Cheers ~ Kat
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  • Chris_VChris_V BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 181 ✭✭
    What does the forum think about my simplification for some of these GTO 6-Max PRO ranges. I combined some ranges that look similar and reduced the amount of ranges I need to think about. For example, I made a 3-BET range that I call "Button In Position or Small Blind vs Late Open":

    AA-88,AKs-A4s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs,65s,AKo-ATo,KQo-KJo

    I've reduced my three bet or fold ranges down to 3 that build linearly upon one another (meaning that I never drop a holding from the tighter range when using a looser range). I could probably get away with just two 3-BET or FOLD ranges in my games though. Thoughts?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    I think comparing ranges from different sources has some merit, because it tends to bring out which hands are solidly in certain ranges and which are more cuspy. Once you have a good feel for that, I think how you adapt and merge them for personal use mostly boils down to how much you want to remember.
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  • FlawwedFlawwed Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    What adjustments would you make for limpers/overcallers, etc. In my brain I am incentivized to squeeze more with some of these marginals from oop when there is an overcall. It seems right but also seems like a higher variance line. Example of A5s from utg w button 3bettor and bb cold caller. I four bet it large the other night and it worked but it felt... off. Anyone have some insight?
  • Sleeper_Aces719Sleeper_Aces719 Colorado SpringsRed Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    I know the focus has been 6 max GTO ranges; however, any idea when the team will release their 9 max? I've been using the Pro GTO 6 Max and expanded them to fit 9 max with some success.
  • JamesTheG1antJamesTheG1ant Los Angeles, CARed Chipper Posts: 51 ✭✭
    Flawwed wrote: »
    What adjustments would you make for limpers/overcallers, etc. In my brain I am incentivized to squeeze more with some of these marginals from oop when there is an overcall. It seems right but also seems like a higher variance line. Example of A5s from utg w button 3bettor and bb cold caller. I four bet it large the other night and it worked but it felt... off. Anyone have some insight?
    I think the squeeze play here is good but it's highly dependent on the opponents. I would use this play more often against looser 3bettors.

    The play's success also depends on your table image. If your image is tight (or new to the table), you can generate a lot of folds because you're repping a very strong range. However, if your image is loose, you may find yourself getting called/5bet more often.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    I know the focus has been 6 max GTO ranges; however, any idea when the team will release their 9 max? I've been using the Pro GTO 6 Max and expanded them to fit 9 max with some success.

    I checked at HQ and the estimate is 6 weeks.
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  • NEMONEMO Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    Are the Open Raise ranges suitable for isolation raises when one or more players have limped before you, or which adjustments are needed?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,220 -
    NEMO wrote: »
    Are the Open Raise ranges suitable for isolation raises when one or more players have limped before you, or which adjustments are needed?

    They'll work okay, or you can default to the isolation-raise ranges given in CORE:

    https://redchippoker.com/lessons/iso-raising-and-limping/
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