Is this a shove? (SPR Debate)

Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 52 ✭✭
This hand was discussed with my study group and there is some debate about whether or not to play the hand the way I played. This hand history will include my thought process so that you know what my logic is.

Table Stakes \$0.02/\$0.04
We are playing 7 handed at a 9 max table
Hero is UTG+1 with \$8 (effective stack)
Villain in the SB with \$9.07

UTG Folds
Hero looks at and open raises to \$0.12
HJ Folds
CO 3-bets to \$0.35
BTN Folds
Villain calls
BB Folds
Hero 4-bets to \$0.90
CO calls
Villain calls
Pot is \$2.74

In this spot I decide to 4-bet because I don't think Villain is going to be flat calling with many strong holdings. They should really be 4-betting with the top of their range. I also know that CO likes to 3-bet and I think I am ahead of most of their range as well. I decide to size up my 4-bet just a little bit in hopes to get at least one fold. By flatting I think they are both capped. In hindsight, I think I could have made my 4-bet a little bigger.

The flop comes

Villain checks
Hero shoves for \$7.10
CO folds
Villain calls

After Villain checks to me, I think this confirms my thoughts that they don't have any premium pocket pairs. I think villain has a lot of broadway cards, mostly suited. CO might have an under pair and some broad way cards both suited and unsuited. In the moment I calculate the SPR to be about 2, the SPR is actually 2.59. I think about betting 2/3 pot but if they both call then I am left with a little over half a pot. If I bet half pot then what? On the turn I have to shove because I don't have enough left behind. I come to the conclusion that no matter what I do, my money is going in and I don't have enough to make a decent sized bet on the turn. I decide to rip it in.

Villain shows

The rest of the board runs out

The debate is should I have shoved the flop or not. Some say that I should have because of the SPR and I am included in that side of the argument. Others say that I should have bet small and then played the turn.

What are your thoughts?

• Red Chipper Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited December 2020
First of all, SPR is not a rule, but just an information about how much playability / flexibility you have on later streets. This also impacts your implied odds - deeper you play, better are drawy combos and less pocket pairs.
Hence you should not just see "There is a low SPR, so I 'have to shove' or 'have to play for stacks' ", but more a rule-of-thumb about how to construct your range in the aim of playing for stack.

Second, the way the money is going in the pot impacts a ton your EV. Shoving this flop is trashing your hand: Do you really expect Villain to call a 2.6x overshove, which is done against 2 players, on a super dry hi-low board, when you're a 4bettor, with worst hands than QQ like 88, 99, JT, AJs, KQs, AK? (If they even have those combos after you 4bet...) Surely not - except if Villains are crazy bad gamblers - or if you're yourself a crazy bad gambler. Very probably you're only getting called when you're behind.
Hence shoving flop is strongly -EV.

Betting very small to small (10-33% PSB) with your whole 4-bet range is right.
• Posts: 4,280 -
Maybe another way of asking this question is:

Under what circumstances is it correct to massively overbet-jam flop?
Moderation In Moderation
• Red Chipper Posts: 1,535 ✭✭✭✭
No, I don't think you should have any hand needs/want to almost 3x overbet jam J24r in 3w 4B pot. This is definitely a spot where a smaller CB size should be used.

What hands in your 4B range need that much protection(massive bet size) on such a dry flop?

What worse hands will call you jam?

What hands in your range will bluff with that size?
• Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 52 ✭✭
Your responses have given me some food for thought. The main take away that I am seeing from your comments is that I focused to much on the stack sizes on the flop and I should not have rushed to get it in so soon even though I knew we were going to get it in.

@TheGameKat I am not really sure there is an answer to an overbet jam. I don't find myself over bet jamming very often. In fact I am usually setting myself up to jam on the turn or river.
• Posts: 4,280 -
Your responses have given me some food for thought. The main take away that I am seeing from your comments is that I focused to much on the stack sizes on the flop and I should not have rushed to get it in so soon even though I knew we were going to get it in.

@TheGameKat I am not really sure there is an answer to an overbet jam. I don't find myself over bet jamming very often. In fact I am usually setting myself up to jam on the turn or river.

Yup, as addressed by kenaces.
Moderation In Moderation
• IllinoisRed Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
edited December 2020
Man never jam this pot. Just bet 1\$ or 1.25\$ On flop. Turn 2.50. Ship river.

• Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
edited December 2020
I'm Agreeing, Jamming so large means your either betting a scared or capped Range. Any better hand than yours will call and you'll be praying any worse hand will be folding and your losing EV. You don't have to win every hand no matter how good the hand your dealt looks. Its a GRIND not a Lottery. Yes its great to stack someone but not the purpose. I'm learning this each and everyday. One day i'll reach the levels of thinking that you all are at.
Merry Christmas and a Blessed New Year