Is this a shove? (SPR Debate)
CriminalBizzy
Las VegasRed Chipper Posts: 52 ✭✭
This hand was discussed with my study group and there is some debate about whether or not to play the hand the way I played. This hand history will include my thought process so that you know what my logic is.
Table Stakes $0.02/$0.04
We are playing 7 handed at a 9 max table
Hero is UTG+1 with $8 (effective stack)
Villain in the SB with $9.07
UTG Folds
Hero looks at
and open raises to $0.12
HJ Folds
CO 3-bets to $0.35
BTN Folds
Villain calls
BB Folds
Hero 4-bets to $0.90
CO calls
Villain calls
Pot is $2.74
In this spot I decide to 4-bet because I don't think Villain is going to be flat calling with many strong holdings. They should really be 4-betting with the top of their range. I also know that CO likes to 3-bet and I think I am ahead of most of their range as well. I decide to size up my 4-bet just a little bit in hopes to get at least one fold. By flatting I think they are both capped. In hindsight, I think I could have made my 4-bet a little bigger.
The flop comes
Villain checks
Hero shoves for $7.10
CO folds
Villain calls
After Villain checks to me, I think this confirms my thoughts that they don't have any premium pocket pairs. I think villain has a lot of broadway cards, mostly suited. CO might have an under pair and some broad way cards both suited and unsuited. In the moment I calculate the SPR to be about 2, the SPR is actually 2.59. I think about betting 2/3 pot but if they both call then I am left with a little over half a pot. If I bet half pot then what? On the turn I have to shove because I don't have enough left behind. I come to the conclusion that no matter what I do, my money is going in and I don't have enough to make a decent sized bet on the turn. I decide to rip it in.
Villain shows
The rest of the board runs out
The debate is should I have shoved the flop or not. Some say that I should have because of the SPR and I am included in that side of the argument. Others say that I should have bet small and then played the turn.
What are your thoughts?
Table Stakes $0.02/$0.04
We are playing 7 handed at a 9 max table
Hero is UTG+1 with $8 (effective stack)
Villain in the SB with $9.07
UTG Folds
Hero looks at
and open raises to $0.12HJ Folds
CO 3-bets to $0.35
BTN Folds
Villain calls
BB Folds
Hero 4-bets to $0.90
CO calls
Villain calls
Pot is $2.74
In this spot I decide to 4-bet because I don't think Villain is going to be flat calling with many strong holdings. They should really be 4-betting with the top of their range. I also know that CO likes to 3-bet and I think I am ahead of most of their range as well. I decide to size up my 4-bet just a little bit in hopes to get at least one fold. By flatting I think they are both capped. In hindsight, I think I could have made my 4-bet a little bigger.
The flop comes
Villain checks
Hero shoves for $7.10
CO folds
Villain calls
After Villain checks to me, I think this confirms my thoughts that they don't have any premium pocket pairs. I think villain has a lot of broadway cards, mostly suited. CO might have an under pair and some broad way cards both suited and unsuited. In the moment I calculate the SPR to be about 2, the SPR is actually 2.59. I think about betting 2/3 pot but if they both call then I am left with a little over half a pot. If I bet half pot then what? On the turn I have to shove because I don't have enough left behind. I come to the conclusion that no matter what I do, my money is going in and I don't have enough to make a decent sized bet on the turn. I decide to rip it in.
Villain shows
The rest of the board runs out
The debate is should I have shoved the flop or not. Some say that I should have because of the SPR and I am included in that side of the argument. Others say that I should have bet small and then played the turn.
What are your thoughts?
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Comments
Hence you should not just see "There is a low SPR, so I 'have to shove' or 'have to play for stacks' ", but more a rule-of-thumb about how to construct your range in the aim of playing for stack.
Second, the way the money is going in the pot impacts a ton your EV. Shoving this flop is trashing your hand: Do you really expect Villain to call a 2.6x overshove, which is done against 2 players, on a super dry hi-low board, when you're a 4bettor, with worst hands than QQ like 88, 99, JT, AJs, KQs, AK? (If they even have those combos after you 4bet...) Surely not - except if Villains are crazy bad gamblers - or if you're yourself a crazy bad gambler. Very probably you're only getting called when you're behind.
Hence shoving flop is strongly -EV.
Betting very small to small (10-33% PSB) with your whole 4-bet range is right.
Under what circumstances is it correct to massively overbet-jam flop?
What hands in your 4B range need that much protection(massive bet size) on such a dry flop?
What worse hands will call you jam?
What hands in your range will bluff with that size?
@TheGameKat I am not really sure there is an answer to an overbet jam. I don't find myself over bet jamming very often. In fact I am usually setting myself up to jam on the turn or river.
Yup, as addressed by kenaces.
Merry Christmas and a Blessed New Year