Getting AsTd Check Raised on a Ah4dJd Flop

Ron KRon K Red Chipper Posts: 119
edited September 2014 in Online Poker Hands
P1(SB) $49.50 - VP:13 PFR:0 AF:Inf. W:50|0 STL:0|0 3B:0| CB:|0 N:6.75 Hands:8
P2(BB) $15 - VP:0 PFR:0 AF: W: STL:|100 3B:0| CB: N:-0.50 Hands:1
P3(UTG) $119.37 - VP:61 PFR:6 AF:2.2 W:24|75 STL:7|0 3B:4|100 CB:0|56 N:2.86 Hands:62
P4(MP) $73.64 - VP:35 PFR:23 AF:2.7 W:24|60 STL:60|60 3B:8|100 CB:100|50 N:24.14 Hands:62
Me(CO) $53.80 - VP:21 PFR:16 AF:2.0 W:27|25 STL:33|63 3B:10|100 CB:83| N:-15.60 Hands:62
P6(BTN) $64.85 - VP:16 PFR:7 AF:0.4 W:50|75 STL:38|80 3B:5| CB:|0 N:14.85 Hands:55


Pre Flop: Me(CO) with [ :As , :Td ]
P3(UTG) folds, P4(MP) folds, Me(CO) raises 1.50, P6(BTN) folds, P1(SB) calls 1.25, P2(BB) folds


Flop: ( :Ah , :4d , :Jd ) (2 players) Pot (3.50)
P1(SB) checks, Me(LP) bets 2.25, P1(SB) raises 6, Me(LP) calls 3.75


Turn: :8c (2 players) Pot (15.50)
P1(SB) bets 10.25, Me(LP) folds


Final:
Returns 10.25 to P1(SB)
P1(SB) wins 14.75

I nearly always call these raises and end up folding to the almost certain turn barrel. Is it best just to fold to the raise immediately against unknowns . Does position or backdoor equity influence your decision much? Here my backdoor equity is pretty weak and the turn didn't help. What if I had the A of diamonds or the turn rolls off a K or Q of diamonds? What if I'm OOP, bet and face a raise as opposed to getting check raised? What if I have AK? My main concern is that I just seem to be bet/calling the flop too often and folding to the turn barrel too often.

Thanks for Your Time :)

Comments

  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    Have you ever considered checking back Flop sometimes?
  • Ron KRon K Red Chipper Posts: 119
    Yes if the flop was A49r I'd probably check or if I had some more info on my opponent, but I'm usually betting my top pair hands and sometimes I get raised like in this example.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭
    This is hard to say one way or another definitely with no information TBH.

    I don't hate your bet on flop for balance, value, etc.

    But I also do not hate a check if it's going to garner more mistakes on future streets. Also, if your opponent is a Level 1 thinking he will not know that your checks signifies SDV.

    With ZERO information on the small blind (his POS is important here), I think I check flop with A10o here. Call Turn, and make river decisions based on bet sizing and which river falls.

    If it gets to Show-Down you gain a lot of information on how to proceed later given what he shows up with and the line he chooses.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    I'm with Christian on the flop check here (not every time of course, but at least a heavy consideration of it)

    If we bet the flop he continues with hands like AT, KJ, JT, but he likely folds most of the hands that we beat (88, KQ, etc.) So the bet doesn't allow him to make mistakes with those hands. Whereas if we check, he only improves with those hands a small chunk of the time on the turn AND we give him a chance to try to blow us off of our "scared QQ, TT, or air" type of hand. Unless we think balance is necessary or that we can induce a light CR quite often...I don't mind checking at all.

    I like the check/call/evaluate line here
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  • Ron KRon K Red Chipper Posts: 119
    Thanks Guys,

    I will give more consideration to checking in these spots but as played do you fold to his flop raise?
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,082 -
    Ron K wrote:
    Thanks Guys,

    I will give more consideration to checking in these spots but as played do you fold to his flop raise?

    I make my decision on the flop (since most turns won't change the texture very much). I either call the CR and get pretty sticky...or I just fold to the CR. I don't call and then fold to an [expected] bet on a brick 8 =)
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  • Ron KRon K Red Chipper Posts: 119
    Thank You for Your Time :)
  • Ed MillerEd Miller RCP Coach Posts: 330
    Check-folding the flop is exploitably tight. If you fold, you are making an explicit assumption that your opponent is not bluffing very frequently. (An assumption that holds for many players.)

    Folding this brick turn is also exploitably tight. If you fold, you are making an explicit assumption that your opponent is not continuing with enough of his flop bluffs. (An assumption that holds for some players.)

    If you truly believe that the turn bet was "inevitable" then your line is really bad. Calling the flop raise to fold to a 100% turn bet can't be right.

    However, and this is a big however, that turn bet may not be nearly as inevitable as you think it is. I highly recommend that you actually try to get some hard numbers on exactly how often that turn bet comes in hands similar to this one. If it's 80%+, then the best line with this hand, IMO, is either to fold to the flop raise (if he's not bluffing enough at that point), or it's to check-call flop, call turn.

    When the turn bet percentage dips below 60%, it becomes much more reasonable to check-call flop, fold turn. Remember that when you bet-call the flop, your range has a ton of aces in it... and since you raised preflop you've got a lot of AK, AQ, AJ, etc. A lot of guys won't just bluff like crazy into that range. So either they won't start the process by avoiding check-raising bluffing this flop (in which case you fold to the flop raise), or they will give up between the flop and turn (in which case call the flop to evaluate is probably the best strategy).

    There's no hard and fast answer. When in doubt, I'd map the hand out like I do in Poker's 1% and try to find a spot for ATo that makes sense... and then I'd just play it that way.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,876 -
    Ron K wrote:


    Pre Flop: Me(CO) with [ :As , :Td ]
    P3(UTG) folds, P4(MP) folds, Me(CO) raises 1.50, P6(BTN) folds, P1(SB) calls 1.25, P2(BB) folds


    Flop: ( :Ah , :4d , :Jd ) (2 players) Pot (3.50)
    P1(SB) checks, Me(LP) bets 2.25, P1(SB) raises 6, Me(LP) calls 3.75

    To jump on the bandwagon here:

    I check the flop.

    My hand is not going to comfortably improve. If I hit two pair, now Broadway is out there. A second Ace does not really improve my hand relative to what I am currently beating.

    When making a value bet, I look at the next worst hand than mine. In this case: :A? :9?

    Exactly how many streets of action do I think I can get from this A9o hand? One, maybe two. The two is most likely to come if I sandbag one street. If I bet flop then bet turn, the concept of turn leverage is working against me if going for value. If the pot is already been made bigger on the flop, calling the turn implies having to face an even bigger river bet. Since we are ostensibly betting for value, this works against us. We can get plenty of 'value' better hands, so we need to make sure we are getting real value from hands we beat.

    Second, this board can get a lot uglier and our hand will be a bluff catcher. What do I do with bluff catchers? I catch bluffs or misguided 'value' bets from OOP Villain.
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  • Ron KRon K Red Chipper Posts: 119
    Mr. Miller and Mr. Hull , I can't thank you enough for your deep analysis . I will always try to remember what you guys said when I am in similar spots. There are times I check in these spots and I try to think about turn and river dynamics . So thanks for explaining that Mr. Hull . This also kinda reminds me of Ed Millers article on how to look at flops (which I will be re-reading again so I can choose better lines.)

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