( 1st ) 2 pair on the turn facing All In

DelTraiDelTrai Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
First time posting so I thought Id share my last hand from last night.

$1-$3 cash game ( 9 players )
Loose game, Limps & calls everywhere
.............................
2 limpers EP
CO villain bets $12. ( $200 left )
SB folds
BB Hero calls :7h:8h ( $470 left )
1 limper calls

Pot = $37
.............................
Flop :7c:3h:Kd
Everyone checks to Villain who Bets $20
Hero Calls
limper Folds

Pot = $77

Villain is often a dealer at these pub games as well as a player & from what Ive seen plays tighter Pre Flop with better starting hands then pretty much everyone in this game, Id also seen him 2/3 barrel a couple times as Pre Flop raiser & called down on one of them bluffing, so my impression is he's better then the average player in this game.
From what he's seen of my play over multiple venues Id say he views me as a similar style player Tight starting hands until my luck & image run good and then I start loosening up on all streets.
........................

Turn = :8c ( gives me 2 pair ) :7h:8h
Hero Bets $50 ( donked into him at the time my thought process was to just look different & see how he reacts )

Villain goes All In for $175 ( casual pretty fast shove )

If I think back this was a possible result I was after when I donked into him, but when he dose actually shove pretty quickly second thoughts start kicking in lol.
Did this guy hit a set of Kings or 3's!!
My thought process above all happened in a split second before I made a move and I didn't even slow down to consider the pot odds to be honest or his stack size I knew from earlier in the game that he the had about $200ish dollars but that was not going through my mind in the heat of the moment


$302 in the pot & $125 to call
..... Is this an easy call?
..... comments on any actions or thought process?

Ive started working through Ed Millers book and video series The Course and I must admit I find myself still straying off the path a fair bit..... gggrrr


Cheers Guys



Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,877 -
    Switch seats with villain.

    If you have a set there, do you think about flatting to trap? Do you need more or less time to decide to shove AK? AA?

    At first glance this seems to be a case of "don't pay people off", but given remaining stack depth I think V can shove with hands we're beating here. And we're getting a decent price. Probably a good idea to range them and find out your equity.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • JamesTheG1antJamesTheG1ant Los Angeles, CARed Chipper Posts: 51 ✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Switch seats with villain.

    If you have a set there, do you think about flatting to trap? Do you need more or less time to decide to shove AK? AA?
    With a static Type 1 flop like this, I can see opponents flatting the turn to trap if they flopped a set. If I put myself in V's seat (as Kat mentions), all things equal, I would flat a set here more often than raising. If my opponent starts betting at me when I am nutted, I usually give them the opportunity to keep betting as long as the board is not extremely dangerous. I don't want to raise and force them to fold on the current street when I think there's a good chance they'll bet again on the future street if I call the current one.

    All that being said, I think I would call V's shove in your spot. I wouldn't say its an easy call but I agree with @TheGameKat that there are a lot of hands that would shove the turn given the remaining stack depth (AK, AA, KQ). As Kat says, estimate V's range here and you'll have your answer.

    One other thing to mention -- I've personally been working on thinking about future actions proactively and encourage other to do the same. Before your donk lead on the turn, you should be thinking about the consequences. That way once V shoves, you'll already have a game plan and won't be stuck in "panic mode."
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,877 -
    I very much agree with the philosophy of preparing an "IF... THEN..." strategy and mindset.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • DelTraiDelTrai Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    Cheers guys

    It wasn't until I was typing out the above post that I saw the pot odds & Ive since then put his range into poker cruncher & all looks ok there putting me around 50/50.
    I don't often look into hands Ive played ( maybe poker cruncher some hands at most ) but will have to do a lot more of it by the looks of things.

    Also planing the future streets sounds like good advice & is something Ill defiantly have to work through more ( I kind of do try to plan but will look to plan more deliberately in future play )

    yes AA & AK take up a lot of room in his range

    also unfortunately when I start feeling heavly pressured in certain situations ( not so much with this pot ) when Money is big for me ( $600++ pots & seemingly good &/or bluffy players ) my instinctual move sometimes is to call a big bet or shove over the top or 3 bet on the turn with Flush Draws, And it seems sometimes I just can't help myself.

    self control issues, I reckon I need to work on slowing down & working through each decision ( not just immediate action lol ) to worried about giving up a big percentage of my stack & it seems to me these moves have cost me more then Ive won.
    Thanks for listening to what I consider my poker playing Demons






  • JamesTheG1antJamesTheG1ant Los Angeles, CARed Chipper Posts: 51 ✭✭
    DelTrai wrote: »
    ...also unfortunately when I start feeling heavly pressured in certain situations ( not so much with this pot ) when Money is big for me ( $600++ pots & seemingly good &/or bluffy players ) my instinctual move sometimes is to call a big bet or shove over the top or 3 bet on the turn with Flush Draws, And it seems sometimes I just can't help myself.
    The aggressive mindset is a good thing to have. My assumption when you mention "good" players is that you are referring to a LAG. Raising against these types of players and "bluffy" players makes a lot of sense because they are likely to have a larger chunk of weaker hands in their range. In other words, against these players, you have more fold equity and better equity when you are actually called. Now, that being said, I wouldn't make this move a default. Against tighter opponents, this could be -EV.
    DelTrai wrote: »
    self control issues, I reckon I need to work on slowing down & working through each decision ( not just immediate action lol ) to worried about giving up a big percentage of my stack & it seems to me these moves have cost me more then Ive won.
    Thanks for listening to what I consider my poker playing Demons
    Proactive thinking will help because you'll already have worked out each option in your head and (hopefully) have a game plan. Slowing down is a good thing too, especially if you feel like you're making quick decisions that are negatively affecting your win rate. Also, don't worry if you feel like you're taking extra time to think on bigger hands. Most other players will understand that this is natural.
  • Noobman123Noobman123 Red Chipper Posts: 136 ✭✭
    edited March 20
    Is calling CO's open here, when we're on the button with 78s standard in full ring live? I don't play live or full ring so just curious. Seems a little loose/passive but I'm super new so just kinda learning and hqaven't ever played full ring or lvie so that may basically be a totally diff game
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,877 -
    Noobman123 wrote: »
    Is calling CO's open here, when we're on the button with 78s standard in full ring live? I don't play live or full ring so just curious. Seems a little loose/passive but I'm super new so just kinda learning and hqaven't ever played full ring or lvie so that may basically be a totally diff game

    87s is in our recommended CORE calling range, although we assume a slightly smaller live open than $12 which makes it a bit more marginal. We're closing the action and have okay stack depth, so I think it's fine.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Noobman123Noobman123 Red Chipper Posts: 136 ✭✭
    edited March 20
    Okay cool that makes sense, appreciate it. Interesting how in live there's a calling range for button whereas in 6max online there isn't
  • DelTraiDelTrai Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    edited March 21
    I called with 78s from the Big Blind sorry I thought BB meant big blind lol
    But yes that PF call had me thinking later on ( I was hoping someone would comment on that )
    Sometimes Id Reraise there & sometimes call or fold, With a lot of Early position limping with big pocket pairs & AK going on in these games I think I was a bit scared to Reraise as Id recently seen and also been the victim of this move on these tables
    & Im surprised one of those limpers actually folded Pre flop.



  • Noobman123Noobman123 Red Chipper Posts: 136 ✭✭
    oh thats my bad - not sure why I thought you were on the button. Sorry about that
  • JamesTheG1antJamesTheG1ant Los Angeles, CARed Chipper Posts: 51 ✭✭
    DelTrai wrote: »
    I called with 78s from the Big Blind sorry I thought BB meant big blind lol
    Yeah, BB = big blind
    DelTrai wrote: »
    But yes that PF call had me thinking later on ( I was hoping someone would comment on that )
    Sometimes Id Reraise there & sometimes call or fold, With a lot of Early position limping with big pocket pairs & AK going on in these games I think I was a bit scared to Reraise as Id recently seen and also been the victim of this move on these tables
    & Im surprised one of those limpers actually folded Pre flop.
    I think there's validity for calling the iso-raise and for 3betting; I don't think I'd ever fold in this spot with 87s unless I thought there was a strong likelihood one of the limpers would re-raise behind me. You mention that this is a possibility since you've seen it happen and been victim to it already. Even considering this, I would still venture a call because if you are raised by one of the EP limpers, you can just fold with confidence knowing that they have a monster. You can also decide to call if they make a raise sizing blunder.
    In general, against aggressive opponents, I'd lean more towards the 3bet because they have more weak hands in their preflop 2bet/iso-raise range. Against tight opponents, I'd lean towards calling.
    DelTrai wrote: »
    Villain is often a dealer at these pub games as well as a player & from what Ive seen plays tighter Pre Flop with better starting hands then pretty much everyone in this game
    In this particular hand, based on your read that V has a tighter preflop range, I would call (rather than 3bet). You're unlikely to be raised by one of the limpers behind you and they're more incentivized to call if you call. Suited connectors (like 87s) perform decently when multiway so I like your decision to call here.
  • DelTraiDelTrai Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    End result was I called and he turned over :Ks:3s ( I think it was, it might have even been offsuit I can't remember lol )
    Basically I lost that hand & cashed in & went home
  • JamesTheG1antJamesTheG1ant Los Angeles, CARed Chipper Posts: 51 ✭✭
    DelTrai wrote: »
    End result was I called and he turned over :Ks:3s ( I think it was, it might have even been offsuit I can't remember lol )
    Basically I lost that hand & cashed in & went home
    That's interesting to note. If I pegged this person as a TAG initially, I would not have included :KS::3S: in V's range. However, after going to showdown and seeing V's holdings, I would reevaluate my read on this opponent (unless you thought this was a weird one-off hand that he decided to raise and nailed the flop). I'd move him into more of the LAG spectrum and start including more of the weaker suited Ax and Kx in his preflop iso-raise range.
    If you ever run into him again on the felt and see him iso-raising, try 3betting him wider. You may have just found a counter-exploit.
  • DelTraiDelTrai Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    edited March 27
    Yup Sounds good 👍 👍

    Cheers

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file