Fold or Shove?

BPTerryBPTerry Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
Playing a live 1/2 game that plays extremely lose and wild.
Hero is 2UTG with 7/7 Raises 17, Villan 1 is in HJ and calls, Villan 2 is on button and calls.
Villan 1 has a range of 77+ All broadway.
Villan 2 has a wide range. Any pair, any A, and Broadway. He is a calling station and Cbets everytime.
Flop comes 10/9/8 rainbow.
Hero checks, Villan 1 checks, Villan 2 bets $35. Hero Calls. Villan 1 raises to $135 with $400 left in his stack. Villan 2 tanks and folds. Hero has $300 in his stack but folds.

I believe my options were to push or fold and that pushing was still plus EV. Am I correct?


  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,877 -
    With what range would V1 make that flop check-raise?
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  • BPTerryBPTerry Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
    Hes a fairly decent player but I had only played against him a few times. At that point I put his range at 88-JJ, J10, KJS+ I also had 67S+ in his general range preflop but I forgot to add that in the original text. A10 was still possible but I figure it highly unlikely. QQ+ he would have reraised me preflop based on prior experience. I hadn't seen him bluff a large percentage of the time but I have no doubt he knew a big reraise could push V2 out and given my check/call he had me weak. So I hadnt completely ruled out most of his basic Broadway starting ranges.
  • BPTerryBPTerry Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
    And just for the record V2 showed he folded A/10 and V1 showed 10/9 after the hand was over.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,877 -
    Based on that range, which looks sensible, it's a pretty easy fold. In fact I'm not sure calling the first bet is correct.

    There are two problems IMO. First, you have the wrong end of a 1-card straight draw. I realize it's technically an 8-outer, but it's generally better to think of these 1-card draws as 4-outers. The situation here is even more suspect, since you could be drawing effectively dead.

    The second general issue is the texture of this board. It supports a lot of pair+draw hands that might fit in a check-raise range. (Contrast this to a flush draw where your pair could be ahead here.) So in aggregate you're in a spot where you're almost certainly currently behind, you can hit your draw and quite easily lose, or you're drawing dead. That's not a spot where I want to invest money.

    To answer your specific question, unless you have a huge amount of fold equity, I don't think shoving is +EV. In fact it looks like setting money on fire to me.
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  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BPTerry wrote: »
    Playing a live 1/2 game that plays extremely lose and wild.
    BPTerry wrote: »
    At that point I put his range at 88-JJ, J10, KJS+ I also had 67S+ in his general range preflop but I forgot to add that in the original text
    There is a big contradiction. You put Villain on a casual / tight-ish range when your describe the table extremely loose.

    BPTerry wrote: »
    Hero is 2UTG with 7/7 Raises 17
    This is way way too much

  • LoveFishLoveFish IllinoisRed Chipper Posts: 146 ✭✭
    This seems like a very easy check fold.
  • KossKoss Red Chipper Posts: 62 ✭✭
    I'd have just folded to the $35. You don't have direct odds to draw to the straight, and in spots like these I want better than direct odds because we're drawing to a nun-nut hand that will sometimes lose even if we hit one of our outs. One card straights are significantly weaker hands because they are obvious and won't get paid off at nearly the same rate. We're drawing to the bottom end of it which causes reverse implied odds problems. Even if we turn a 6 our opponents are often drawing live going to the river. Not all straight draws are created equal, and this one is about as bad as it gets on a rainbow board.

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