Pro GTO preflop charts

MortgageBrokerMortgageBroker Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
Hey Everyone,

How did you go about memorizing or using the preflop GTO charts provided in Pro? I'm thinking flash cards, but is there an easier way?

Thanks!

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,863 -
    If you want to suck all the enjoyment out of the game, I'd recommend flash cards.

    The important point to recognize IMO is that, particularly around the edges, the EV between say opening and folding will be negligible. More to the point, it's the edge cases that are particularly sensitive to the assumed range of the opponents. So I'd recommend nailing down the more robust part of the range, understanding how it varies with position, and not stress too much when you pick up J9s in CO and can't remember what to do. It simply won't matter very much, and the decision is likely dominated by reads on the remaining players anyway.
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  • MortgageBrokerMortgageBroker Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    So let's say I want to suck the enjoyment out of the game. Flash cards then?
  • MortgageBrokerMortgageBroker Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    So, I'm confused. If they don't really matter that much, in regards to EV, why have such specific ranges for every type of position? Can't have it both ways. Either it's important for people to use the recommended ranges or not.

    I do think it matters, hence the question.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,863 -
    edited June 3
    What I'm trying to convey is that bits of the chart are far more important than others, and for the most part the more important bits are the easiest to remember. You already have a sense of good and bad hands and the importance of position. But poker isn't blackjack, there's no if X then Y. Thus if you don't have perfect recall on the CO open-raise range, I wouldn't worry about it because a far bigger factor is how the players behind you will respond to an open.

    That said, I take a somewhat unorthodox view on memorization, and if you're more comfortable doing this via brute force then obviously go ahead.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,863 -
    edited June 3
    @MortgageBroker This article I wrote with Chris may help explain what I'm getting at.

    In more practical terms, ask yourself the following. Suppose your recall of these charts goes from good to perfect with an extra 30 hours study. Then suppose I told you the difference in EV had you used "good" versus "perfect" charts would be $30 over your next year of poker. Would you put in the extra 30 hours? Would you do so if I told you devoting those 30 hours to postflop study would net you an additional $500?

    When we constructed those charts, we were looking for a compromise between ease of learning and accuracy. To do so we reduced the mixed decisions to binary ones. That in itself likely costs a tiny bit of EV, but that's the compromise we reached. My personal compromise is to simply not stress about edge cases. Poker is a multi-street game and I feel my time is better spent on other aspects rather than looking for preflop perfection.
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  • MortgageBrokerMortgageBroker Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Thanks for the detailed response and discussion. Read your article and very much respect your opinion.

    While studying post flop play and understanding how players react to an open is obviously critically important, it doesn't make mastering preflop play less important.

    It's not an either or thing, I guess would be my point. If I can get ANY kind of advantage, whether it be small or large, I'm going to dedicate time to master that advantage.

    And finally, the difference between a perfect (or close to perfect) preflop strategy vs a good strategy would be gigantic in the long run, especially if you're playing 10,000+ hands a month. Could be thousands of dollars per month (or more) if playing a decent stakes.

    While poker isn't blackjack, it's certainly headed in that direction. Best to get ahead of the crowd before you get left behind, IMO.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,863 -
    edited June 3
    I'm not a cash specialist, but coach w34z3l is, and frequently notes that most players would improve their bottom line far more by studying postflop play than pre. That factored in to my response above. You'd have to be playing insane stakes for 10,000 hands to lead to thousands of dollars/month difference between good and perfect recall. Besides, 10,000 hands for an online grinder is the weekend. ;)

    I'd suggest there IS an either/or element to this, because if you're working on preflop, you're not working on something else.

    Good luck.
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  • PapaGiorgioPapaGiorgio Red Chipper Posts: 114 ✭✭
    @MortgageBroker Are you a live or online player? If you're playing online, then make and print the ranges to have them in front of you while you play. If you check every PF decision against the charts, then you'll gradually learn the ranges. I did this but have since moved away from checking every decision against the charts. As was said, the edges are the gray area and you'll learn that those decisions to play really come down to assume ranges.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭✭

    While studying post flop play and understanding how players react to an open is obviously critically important, it doesn't make mastering preflop play less important.

    It's not an either or thing, I guess would be my point. If I can get ANY kind of advantage, whether it be small or large, I'm going to dedicate time to master that advantage.

    And finally, the difference between a perfect (or close to perfect) preflop strategy vs a good strategy would be gigantic in the long run, especially if you're playing 10,000+ hands a month. Could be thousands of dollars per month (or more) if playing a decent stakes.

    While poker isn't blackjack, it's certainly headed in that direction. Best to get ahead of the crowd before you get left behind, IMO.

    If you are already playing at "decent stakes" online and don't have preflop dialed in you are already behind the curve :)

    Most good online players use some form of charts/software for preflop help in-game. Of course, don't violate TOS for your chosen site. With enough study/practice you will soon be able to get 90%+ of preflop decision "right" without glancing at your charts.

    But even with GTO preflop mastered there are still lots of places to tweak ranges based on table/players(ie steal more vs nit in blinds, play tighter with super LAG on your left,...)

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I'm not a cash specialist, but coach w34z3l is, and frequently notes that most players would improve their bottom line far more by studying postflop play than pre.

    I'd suggest there IS an either/or element to this, because if you're working on preflop, you're not working on something else.

    I think this is likely true if the player is already reasonable close to playing well preflop(many are not). Pre-flop is the low-hanging fruit as a serious student should be able to get very good at it pretty quickly.

    I do agree that after a player has a decent(not perfect) preflop game they should focus on post-flop play. There is both a point of diminishing returns and opportunity cost to obsessing over preflop strategy. In monker solves you can see the EVs of each preflop hand. A surprising number of decisions are either 0EV or very close to 0EV, If you always get these close spots wrong it will have very little effect on your results over 10K hands.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 4,863 -
    Right, our edge case opening hands average about 0.015bb, but that of course assumes that we've ranged our opponents perfectly. So it's definitely useful to know where the edge is, but you don't need a lot of info on game texture to improve on that through deviation, thus the importance of understanding the conceptual basis IMO. Overly focusing on perfect recall strikes me as a potential case of precision without accuracy for a given table.
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  • Chris_VChris_V BoiseRed Chipper Posts: 172 ✭✭
    edited June 7
    Hey Everyone,

    How did you go about memorizing or using the preflop GTO charts provided in Pro? I'm thinking flash cards, but is there an easier way?

    Thanks!

    I've said it before I like Miller's idea that all EP positions are one range, CO, BTN, and Blinds get their own ranges because the amount of hands you can play goes up exponentially as you get closer to the BTN.

    I first simplified all the ranges down two about 9 to 15 major ones I felt were important. Open, Isolation, 3-Bet, 4-Bet, 5-Bet and Big Blind. Because I don't play high limit live or anything above 25NL online I never have got to use my 5 bet ranges in practice, and my 4-Bet ranges only online. I mostly use Open, Isolation, 3-Bet, and Big Blind defense.

    As for memorization itself I use two methods in tandem. I write down every range from "cusp plus" so early open 6-max would be: 66+, A2s+,ATo+, K7s+, KTo+,...... you get the picture. I also made a bunch of copies of the 13x13 grid and I color in the ranges. So now I can see the ranges and call them out by their cusp hands. Seems to work for me.

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