A story and question with many moving parts

SicSemperSicSemper Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
edited August 2015 in Live Poker Hands
So, here's my story. Got into poker because of Party, moved out to Vegas for unrelated-to-poker reasons 10 years ago, and have played almost exclusively 4/8 limit since then, doing well back in the day, less so as players went better. Subscribed to RCP a few months ago, bought The Course and finally took the leap into cash NL that I should've made years ago. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, the book and the site have been fairly revelatory for me. I have a library of poker books and I often put in time studying the game even grinding 4/8, but the materials (yes, even SSHE) never seemed to get me over the hump to regaining the winrate I had in the Moneymaker years. In my admittedly small sample size at NL over the past couple of months, I've just felt, in a very amorphous way, better at the table. Big ups to the crew here for that.

This is getting so tl;dr, I realize. And I apologize. But it's all of a piece. If you have to nope out, I totally understand.

Last night, Venetian 1/2 NL. Early in the night, villain, an older gentleman in his late 50s/early 60s rocking sunglasses and headphones, three-bets a hand to $25, next-to-act shoves for a around $130. Villain thinks for a minute and calls. Villain had :T? :T? , his opponent had :J? :J? and the runout was low.

Later in the evening, villain is in the HJ and hero is on the button.

Villain: $200
Hero: $100

Villain open raises to $17
Hero three-bets :Kc:Kd to $50
Villain thinks for a second and calls. Pot is $103.

Flop: :8h:5s:5d
Villain checks
Hero shoves
Villain tanks. Villain gets agitated. Villain mumbles to himself for five to seven minutes,to the point other players start jawing. Villain spins around like a top and falls to his knees like Shatner in Wrath of Khan. Villain tries to start the wave. Villain starts shadowboxing. Villain finally calls.

Board runs out :4d:Kh and I flip up my boat and double. Now, four questions here.

1) I felt like the three-bet size was correct and the pot jam was fine considering I'd seen villain way overcall that TT on a shove in the past. This was read, board and cards all coming together in ways I wish they would more often. BUT, remember the part where I said I'm really far more used to 4/8? Well that manifested itself in two ways here, and two ways in later pot. When considering my bet sizing, I was 90% sure the jam was the right play here, but as I was mulling what to do, I realized I'd be more lost against opponents who played a snug game. I want to get it in in this spot, I'm a little ambivalent about the right sizing against less reckless opposition. $75 leaves $75 behind and if villain picks up a SD/FD on the turn, you've priced them in. $100 leaves you so little behind a turn/river bet is meaningless. $50 prices in a draw on the flop, if the texture had been only slightly different.

2) While villain was putting me through the call-or-fold ringer, my move was to stare lasers into the board and hold still. That's my move after every bet. Just to be consistent and not in any weak-means-strong kind of way. But my heart was pounding (again, 4/8) and I know I was breathing heavier than I'd like. Tried to just slow my breathing but involuntary response is involuntary. Anyone dealt with this and found a good way to push past?

3.) Later pot 1. I'm in EP and raise to $8 with :7s:7c . Same villain calls on button. Flop is the oh-so-pretty :7h:8h:8d . I bet $10, he calls. Turn is a brick, I bet $25 and he mucks. This is again a bet-sizing thing against this particular type of villain. Did I miss a chance to way overbet this pot and tilt him into a dead call?

4.) Later pot 2. BB with :7d:8c . Three limpers and I knock. Flop is :9h:Ts:Jh . Pot is $8 and I lead for $6. I get two callers, turn is :5h . I totally went into 4/8 MW-pot-with-three-to-a-flush-mode and checked. Villain 1 bets $12, villain 2 calls. I just call. No real specific question or anything here, but I played my flopped straight like ass, right? (checked around river and they had junk).<br /><br />*** Unknown response from http://78.47.96.11/api2.0. Error 2: Can't use string ("h"post_url":"http:\/\/forum.redc"...) as a HASH ref while "strict refs" in use at /usr/local/cleantalk/bin/moderate.pl line 1198.
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Comments

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have some replies, but would like a check on your stack size. Your reported $100 stack doesn't seem consistent with notes about bet sizing in 1).
  • SicSemperSicSemper Red Chipper Posts: 112 ✭✭
    Oops, yeah, that was a typo. I started the hand at $200.<br /><br />*** Unknown response from http://78.47.62.84/api2.0. Error 2: Can't use string ("h"post_url":"http:\/\/forum.redc") as a HASH ref while "strict refs" in use at /usr/local/cleantalk/bin/moderate.pl line 1198.
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  • Ed MillerEd Miller RCP Coach Posts: 330
    I like the "low information flop shove" line when you just want to get the money in. The idea is that the turn and river cards just bring more information for your opponent--good or bad--and both kinds of info make them less likely to want to get stacks in bad against your overpair or flopped set.

    So I think your play with KK was perfect. That's an ideal flop to make the play. He'll call with all weaker overpairs. Just stick it in and give him one single do-or-die decision to make. For the most part, you'll get paid.

    Your involuntary response is involuntary, but will get less pronounced the more experience you get. Don't worry too much about it at $1-$2.

    The reason he folded the 7-8-8 flop is because he didn't have anything.

    I probably would have bet the straight, but that's a bit of a tricky spot because you lose to a lot of the hands that can raise you, but you beat some of them also. The one thing I'll say is that the $12 bet is possibly a bet-sizing tell--a stronger hand would likely bet bigger into 3 opponents. So after you check and see the $12 bet and no raise, the chance you have the best hand goes up considerably compared to before the turn action.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SicSemper wrote:
    1)When considering my bet sizing, I was 90% sure the jam was the right play here, but as I was mulling what to do, I realized I'd be more lost against opponents who played a snug game. I want to get it in in this spot, I'm a little ambivalent about the right sizing against less reckless opposition.

    Yeah, if you were playing against a really good player, you'd have a tougher time getting action when raising to $50 with only $150 behind that. Certainly nobody good is going to set mine, for example (although weak players will). Having said that, even a good player has to consider that you might have AK in your range, or even small/mid pocket pairs. Stuff that he might beat on the flop. So basically the math works out fine no matter who you're playing, because of villain's raise size and your stack size. Another option against a more skittish player would be to raise to $40 instead. Personally I think it's important to get it over the $34 price point, even if by $6, simply because the min-raise screams AA/KK to some players. $40 just "feels" more like about triple. That's more callable than $50, and then you can bet $40 on the flop. If he calls, there will be $160 in the pot and you'll still have $120 behind. Now it's a more easily called turn shove. Regarding your thoughts on giving draws a good price, I wouldn't worry about that with these stack sizes. You might not sucker in as many weaker hands, but that's why they're good players, right?
    SicSemper wrote:
    2) While villain was putting me through the call-or-fold ringer, my move was to stare lasers into the board and hold still.

    Yeah that's fine, don't worry about it. People are getting less from you than you probably think.
    SicSemper wrote:
    4.) Later pot 2. BB with :7d:8c . Three limpers and I knock. Flop is :9h:Ts:Jh . Pot is $8 and I lead for $6. I get two callers, turn is :5h . I totally went into 4/8 MW-pot-with-three-to-a-flush-mode and checked. Villain 1 bets $12, villain 2 calls. I just call. No real specific question or anything here, but I played my flopped straight like ass, right?

    No. In general on a wet board with two opponents, I'm going to bet this pretty hard on the flop - in this case full pot bet of $8, maybe $10. The flush comes, what are you gonna do? I think you played the hand OK.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ed Miller wrote:
    The one thing I'll say is that the $12 bet is possibly a bet-sizing tell--a stronger hand would likely bet bigger into 3 opponents. So after you check and see the $12 bet and no raise, the chance you have the best hand goes up considerably compared to before the turn action.

    By raising at this point, you might even get the same or better straight to fold. If instead they have a set or 2 pair, you either shut out their equity or really make them pay.

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