Final Table Meltdown, hand 3

BotswanaNickBotswanaNick Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
edited August 2015 in Live Poker Hands
Continued from previous post.

After losing 1/3 of my stack in first two hands, I was worried about tilting, so I told myself to go into a shell and tighten up. I was still 5th in chips with over 20 blinds. I followed this plan for the most part until the following hand:

Blinds 15k/30k/3k
UTG has 450k (15 blinds).
HJ has 1mil (33 blinds).
Hero (BB) has 600k (20 blinds).
Hero dealt :Kd:Tc in BB.

UTG opens to 60k.
HJ calls 60k.
Hero (BB) calls 30k.
Thoughts? Folding not an option getting this good a price right?

Flop (225k): :2s:2h:Ts
Hero checks.
UTG cbets to 80k.
HJ folds.
Hero calls 80k.
-Feel like we have to peel 1 when we flop top pair.

Turn (385k): :2d:2s:Ts:As
Hero checks.
UTG checks.
This is a very interesting card. Bad for our specific hand, but our range consists exclusively of 2s (we have plenty because we are calling wide out of the BBlind getting 6.5-1) flushes, and Ts (as well as AT, 22, and TT). Villain now has almost exclusively 1 pair hands bigger than Ts (overpairs and big As with a few odd worse hands and a very occasional full house or flush).

River (385k): :2d:2s:Ts:As:4c
UTG has 310 left in his stack.
Hero?

Comments

  • HappySumoHappySumo Red Chipper Posts: 58
    Fold pre-flop. I think calling in this spot based on "pot odds" is incorrect. It leads to situations such as what happened- being OOP in a bloated pot with a marginal hand. I definitely am not calling the near pot sized bet post-flop. He likes his hand and most likely has your T beat.
  • BotswanaNickBotswanaNick Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
    I know it seems bad to be calling with such a marginal hand against a nutted range OOP, but I think defending here is becoming more and more accepted as a necessity these days with the pot odds. I could be wrong though.

    The cbet on the flop is for around 1/3 pot not full pot. I called flop planning on folding to a turn barrel, although with the interesting card and action on the turn that changed the plan.
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 441 ✭✭✭
    I know it seems bad to be calling with such a marginal hand against a nutted range OOP, but I think defending here is becoming more and more accepted as a necessity these days with the pot odds. I could be wrong though.

    The cbet on the flop is for around 1/3 pot not full pot. I called flop planning on folding to a turn barrel, although with the interesting card and action on the turn that changed the plan.

    I understand why you did it Nick, but I think with 20 bigs you need to fold here and look for a better spot to use your chips. Especially since this raise came from UTG range. I think you were getting into a mode where you were trying to get tricky and hope to get lucky. If you were going to play this hand you would be better off check raising and try to rep trips on the flop? But because of ICM I think you are better off waiting till you are in a better position and not put your stack at risk. I don't think at that stage of the tourney you want to get tricky. Dying to know what they had?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Once checking the turn, I think you're going to have a hard time selling anything, if that's what you had in mind. And obviously this isn't a very good value betting spot.

    I think calling preflop is necessary, but it's a "crying call" so to speak. I hate this hand, especially out of position facing a UTG raise. It's near trash. Then calling the flop is probably necessary as well.

    The whole point of all this is your stack size, and where and what you can play poker with. You're going to burn all your fuel in this crappy little situation, where every decision seems to like you "have" to do it, where you don't really have much if any edge, and you never really know where you stand, rather than get your money in in a better spot later.

    But then, that's why KT is a piece of crap to begin with.

    If you want to play, then you should probably have just shoved the turn. Or raised the flop. If you don't feel comfortable doing those, then just fold the flop. And if you're going to fold this flop, it begs the question - did you really have the right odds to call preflop? (We could have replayed this hand with a :2s:2h:Ks flop and things would have been more or less the same, even though the :Ts might be a slightly better card for you to hit.)
  • BotswanaNickBotswanaNick Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
    Ive talked and thought about this hand quite a bit since it happened. I think calling preflop is the only viable option (sure you could fold but if you are focused on laddering up, but it is leaving money on the table).

    On the flop, I don't think we can fold getting such good odds. I don't like raising/shoving, because I expect villain to play perfectly against us (call all overpairs, fold all overcards). I guess it is vaguely possible that he calls with 99 or 88, but I wouldn't count on it (I think calling with those hands would be a big mistake).

    Jeff, I am intrigued with your idea of donking the turn. I normally don't have a donking range in this situation, but the only exception is when the turn smashes our range and gives us serious range advantage (example of this is when board pairs). I don't like donking on this specific card (A), but I think I like it with any small spade. I think if we bet turn on small spades, it will be very hard for villain to call even with a hand as strong as AA (no spade).

    I decided to shove the river as a bluff. I think that this was a mistake, but I am happy with my thought process and don't think it is terrible. Tens are the bottom of my range, and I will be shoving all 2s and flushes on the river (since I have no donking range on the turn or c/raising range on the flop). So we are allowed to include some bluffs in this shoving range. I thought it was likely that we could fold out all JJ-KK, and even thought there was a tiny chance I could fold out an A. But if we aren't folding out Aces, then it is a very marginal bluff from an exploitative perspective, even before factoring in ICM (especially if he is opening AQ and AJ). From a GTO perspective, the problem is that we still have more Ts in our range than we have value hands, so we cannot be bluffing with all of them. But I think KT might be the best choice to include as a bluff, as it blocks AK (villain's most likely calling hand). Perhaps we can include only :Ks :T? , in order to further limit the number of bluffs we have.

    Villain ended up calling with :Ah:Ks . This is the nut worst hand for him to have (other than AA), so we could chalk it up to bad luck, but in the end this was a bad bluff and I should have just checked to preserve my stack.

    Jules, to your question about whether I was pushing too hard to make things happen, I was worried at the time that this was the case (which was the reason for posting the hands originally). But after reviewing my play I feel much better about things. I think this last bluff was my only serious mistake and like I said, I at least like my thought process. And in between the posted hands, I folded for 4 or 5 orbits in a row (was pretty card dead), so I wasn't spewing as much as it might seem. Thanks for y'alls comments there were definitely helpful!
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 441 ✭✭✭
    Well I think you had a great run! It's good to look back and evaluate if you could have made adjustments to your play. Obviously you did a lot right before the final table. Seems the cards turned on you which is unfortunate. I wonder what would have happened if you donked the flop on that hand? It would have been believable with the 22 out of the blind? Don't know if that particular player would of held on to AK? Anyway...you will crush the next one!!

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