Tom Marchese snap-folds KK pre

BotswanaNickBotswanaNick Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
edited February 2017 in General Concepts
Don't know if anyone was watching the 50/100 nl on Live at the Bike last night (its a really fun stream to watch especially for all you live players, I would check it out if you've never watched it before). The lineup was really sick, all wizards and Jennifer Tilly, who the others clearly considered the mark at the table.

Marchese (~25k deep) opened UTG to 300, Tilly (~25k deep) 3bet to 900ish, Stealthmunk (9k maybe?) flatted on button, Marchese 4bet to around 3k, Tilly shoved without even thinking, Stealthmunk folded TT, and Marchese snap folded KK face up. It was awesome. When that deep, I don't think folding KK is actually as controversial as it might seem, but I what I found so impressive was that Tom knew what he was going to do when he 4bet. He knew it was going to be a 4bet/fold (especially when Tilly showed so much strength), and he followed through with his plan. I wish I had that kind of discipline!

Any of you guys ever folded KK pre without some crazy action in front of you? (satties don't count). I strongly considered folding KK to a single 3bet once back in my live playing days, I opened UTG, and a supernitty reg 3bet me from middle position. I knew he was never doing it with AK or JJ, and wasn't sure if he would do it with QQ (while I knew he would do it with AA). I thought it might actually be a good spot to fold, but I couldn't do it, and he ended up having QQ anyways so it worked out.
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  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 4,070 -
    She rips 250bb without even thinking about it? Yeah...sounds like a good fold to me =)

    I've only folded KK preflop a couple of times (in ultra-rare spots where a super-nit cold 4bets or something)...but it's not something I can really do now a days given my image on any given table lol
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  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One of the times I folded KK pre, a fish overcalled the 4 bet from the aces with middle pair and I had to see the board run out with a K on the river, so I would have scooped the obvious AA and the silly set of nines. I should have just closed my eyes and plugged my ears once I surrendered. I was never sure what the moral of the story was in that hand.
  • WpokerWpoker Red Chipper Posts: 35
    Here is another KK fold and the KK would have caught the set. There were five pocket pairs in this hand.
    https://youtu.be/qsdINLKsnLA

    Twice I have been in a hand where there was AA,KK,QQ, being the QQ both times. I have seen three pocket pairs several times and was in a hand where the three pocket pairs flopped a set.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some people make such a big deal about folding KK pre - you'll hear advice like "don't ever fold KK in a cash game, that's just retarded, just don't do it."

    It's just not good advice. There are times you just know. I've folded kings 3 times that I can remember. Twice I was right, and the third time I'll never know.

    Here's an example. Ben is a very tight, but solid winning player. He reads hands pretty well. He knows how I play and he knows I know how he plays (we discuss poker sometimes.) I limp $3 UTG with KK. He raises 2 seats after to $15. There is a caller or two, and I reraise to $50. He now 4-bets.

    I folded my kings face up, and he showed his aces face up. Everyone was telling me that was amazing - they're just not good enough to do that. But really it was so obvious. He knows I'm only limp/reraising AA and KK in that game, and I know he knows that. Yet he's perfectly happy to reraise me (the only way we have a chance to outplay each other is if we both have KK in this spot.) There are some games where I might limp/reraise with less than that, and other games where I'd never limp AA/KK. So our hands were face up at this point anyway for us, we just showed the table for dramatic effect :-)
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wpoker wrote:
    Twice I have been in a hand where there was AA,KK,QQ, being the QQ both times. I have seen three pocket pairs several times and was in a hand where the three pocket pairs flopped a set.

    I was in a home game where UTG had AA, UTG+1 had KK, UTG+2 had QQ. Flop was KQx, river A.

    However, this was a home game where the boyfriend and girlfriend ran the game from their apt. The girlfriend was dealing and the boyfriend was UTG. The hand looked super suspicious. We finally realized they were cheating when later that night a guy asked to be dealt out, and she insisted on dealing his cards anyway and just killing his hand after. The boyfriend was in a seat where he could get her the setup deck.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jennifer Tilly, who the others clearly considered the mark at the table.

    Maybe if she raises 3K to 25K, that's part of the reason :) But that's easy for me to say - I'm not sure how I'd play her hand at this point. She could just flat and play postflop poker. Minraising usually doesn't occur to me. I suppose a smaller reraise could give her opponent some doubt about what she had.
  • BotswanaNickBotswanaNick Red Chipper Posts: 696 ✭✭✭
    Leave it to Jeff turn turn this into a lecture/brag :) jkjk haha (and I know look who's talking!)

    Yeah, I think Tilly didn't really have any good options because I don't think she is capable of 5betting small without AA/KK. So any re-raise would have set Tom's alarm off, regardless of size. But I don't think he is folding there against anyone else at the table...then again everyone else at the table probably has a small 5betting range that includes more than AA/KK (or else they would be flatting AA). So like I said, the fold wasn't as impressive as the command over the table he had, knowing his plan beforehand and understanding how to adjust to different opponents.

    The commentators made a great point about the reciprocal edge of this situation. They posited that had the hands been switched, Tilly would almost certainly have been stacked. When you think about how big the difference is there, that alone gives Tom (and others capable of folding) a huge edge, even if that situation comes up very rarely.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So any re-raise would have set Tom's alarm off, regardless of size.

    Yeah. There are a lot of players against whom I just flat when I raise AA and they reraise.
    But I don't think he is folding there against anyone else at the table...then again everyone else at the table probably has a small 5betting range that includes more than AA/KK (or else they would be flatting AA).

    Yeah, I mean it's just raising 3K to 25K, which as SS said is 250BB. I could be wrong but I just don't see how you can build a winning strategy including raising anything but aces to 25K. Maybe if you have the table on crazy monkey tilt and you're playing for stacks every other hand, but that's a pretty darn hard game to win.

    So like I said, the fold wasn't as impressive as the command over the table he had, knowing his plan beforehand and understanding how to adjust to different opponents.
    They posited that had the hands been switched, Tilly would almost certainly have been stacked.

    Interesting statement. I wonder if that is true. (I'm tempted to quip that if the hands had literally been switched, Tilly almost certainly would have been stacked because she would have thought she had aces, but she would actually have had kings against aces, but I won't :) )
  • FilthyCasualFilthyCasual Red Chipper Posts: 871 ✭✭✭
    The commentators made a great point about the reciprocal edge of this situation. They posited that had the hands been switched, Tilly would almost certainly have been stacked. When you think about how big the difference is there, that alone gives Tom (and others capable of folding) a huge edge, even if that situation comes up very rarely.
    It's not just this spot, but the overall ability to fold slightly worse and extract value with slightly better. That's really what seems to be the difference in the upper-echelon of poker.

    Davidi Katai has some recorded hands that are simply amazing.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LISVztlew3s

    If it wasn't 2 or 3 handed, you'd want to just label him a calling station
  • WpokerWpoker Red Chipper Posts: 35
    jeffnc wrote:
    The girlfriend was dealing and the boyfriend was UTG. The hand looked super suspicious. We finally realized they were cheating

    The 99, TT, JJ was at the casino. The first AA,KK,QQ and all three people flopping a set was at a bar poker game. They have person who deals, and the dealer can play. The dealer lost the hand and I am 100% sure she was not working with the other player. There would be no reason for it and it is just such a non-serious game it makes no sense to cheat.
    The second AA,KK,QQ I really don't think there was any cheating going on, I was the dealer that hand.

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