top pair top kicker action in front of you...

EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
edited September 2015 in Live Poker Hands
1-2

overall the games a bit loose...raises (tend to get 2 to 3 callers...limped pots often go 5-6 way....no one getting out of line.

V1....slightly loose regular...don't remember him raising much...limped a number of pots assume fit or fold...

V2....looser player...raises small with medium hands (77-JJ some suited aces
broadway some suited connectors) raises bigger with QQ+ Ak
limps a fair a mount

V3...loose a bit tillty...one of the looser players...will call down light

Hero...may seeem a bit lagy (or tillty) as I have been raising a lot in
the last 20 minutes...overall tag...

4 limpers...I pick up :Ad :9c on the button....I chose to just limp along
small blind completes big blind V1 checks his option...

flop 6 way...$11

:4c :5h : :9s

SB checks...V1 BB bets $10, V1 mid calls, V2 HJ calls....me on the btn do I raise or call????

Comments

  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,844 -
    What would happen if you went to $25 preflop?

    As played, raise to $50
    My latest poker course brings the popular book 'Poker's 1%' to life- The One Percent
  • JulesJules Red Chipper Posts: 386 ✭✭✭
    I would def raise this up pre from the button. I would make it $20 but split says $25...so listen to him! :) I'm still working on good bet sizing. I have added this to my arsenal and have been scooping a ton of pots pre when it is limped to me in CO or BU. I raise with pretty much any Ace or King (preferably suited) and typically get folds....sometimes I'm called but a c-bet usually shuts it down. Split did a video on this. He mentions playing his off suited A rag a little more aggressively. If you just call with a hand like that on the button what are you hoping for? I think it puts you in a little bit of an awkward spot on the flop like it did... :)
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote:
    What would happen if you went to $25 preflop?

    As played, raise to $50

    If I raise to $25...and get two callers (possibly even one caller depending on stack sizes), I get committed on a flop like this and will have to loose my entire stack.

    Without a read that one of the players calls a lot and plays fit and fold, or there is a very loose fish, who A9 dominates, I think REM comes out with calling being more profitable. Johnathon little had a pretty good article in Cardplayer about why he just called ATo in the button at 1-2.

    I also happen to love mutli way pots with highish spr's against bad players...the hand reading becomes easy but they don't do it. IMO this gives me a much bigger edge (with position) then forcing high variance on player who I hope don't like it.

    As it was..I raised to $40 (a bit small)...got shoved on by the original raiser...and given the limped preflop had an easy fold...

    This was a bit tricky spot...and a raise taking it down might have made it easier...but I think A9o off generally plays just fine (and more profitably) on the button on limped pots.

    Even here given the multi way action, I think a call or even a fold might be close...I mean I had a player bet out with 4 callers behind (with no read that he bets out 2nd pair or draws), and two players called him...with only draws around the 4 5 what is the original better betting with and then what are two other players calling with that can call my riase. With me raising do I really think K9o calls.

    Was thinking (after the fact) that calling was the better play....even if an over card comes on the turn, I can release to any action, and bet if it checks to me.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    Jules wrote:
    I would def raise this up pre from the button. I would make it $20 but split says $25...so listen to him! :) I'm still working on good bet sizing. I have added this to my arsenal and have been scooping a ton of pots pre when it is limped to me in CO or BU. I raise with pretty much any Ace or King (preferably suited) and typically get folds....sometimes I'm called but a c-bet usually shuts it down. Split did a video on this. He mentions playing his off suited A rag a little more aggressively. If you just call with a hand like that on the button what are you hoping for? I think it puts you in a little bit of an awkward spot on the flop like it did... :)


    I would give you the same argument I gave to splits $25. But here you point the reason I do raise up A9s but not A9o....

    If I'm called I hope to C BET a lot and take it down....But I also hope to be able to double barrel a lot. A9o when it misses does not have as much equity as A9s would have so I'm left not being able to c-bet or double barrel as often.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,844 -
    Eazzy wrote:
    If I raise to $25...and get two callers (possibly even one caller depending on stack sizes), I get committed on a flop like this and will have to loose my entire stack.

    That sounds a bit results-oriented.
    Eazzy wrote:
    Without a read that one of the players calls a lot and plays fit and fold, or there is a very loose fish, who A9 dominates, I think REM comes out with calling being more profitable.

    They are open-limping and limping behind from various positions. They are inherently either bad or have bad hands. You have position + decent cards (cards that can actually dominate as well). The R in REM stands for range...
    Eazzy wrote:
    I also happen to love mutli way pots with highish spr's against bad players...the hand reading becomes easy but they don't do it. IMO this gives me a much bigger edge (with position) then forcing high variance on player who I hope don't like it.

    Sure. But in MW pots it becomes much tougher to figure out where you are postflop...
    Eazzy wrote:
    As it was..I raised to $40 (a bit small)...got shoved on by the original raiser...and given the limped preflop had an easy fold...

    But you folded one of the strongest hands in your range! Why are we giving him credit for having exclusively 7 combos of sets or 2 combos of reasonable 2pr? Could he not make this same play with 76, 98, etc.?
    My latest poker course brings the popular book 'Poker's 1%' to life- The One Percent
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote:
    Eazzy wrote:
    If I raise to $25...and get two callers (possibly even one caller depending on stack sizes), I get committed on a flop like this and will have to loose my entire stack.

    That sounds a bit results-oriented.

    Is that not kind of the hole idea behind SPR...we think what type of hands we will flop with these cards, and then try to plan pre-flop for a playable SPR with those hands.

    SplitSuit wrote:
    Eazzy wrote:
    Without a read that one of the players calls a lot and plays fit and fold, or there is a very loose fish, who A9 dominates, I think REM comes out with calling being more profitable.


    They are open-limping and limping behind from various positions. They are inherently either bad or have bad hands. You have position + decent cards (cards that can actually dominate as well). The R in REM stands for range...

    As their limping range alone that matters...its thier calling range when I raise that determines the range and equity (rem) for that line. The whole idea behind REM is to look at the equity in both spots against both ranges and determine which has the best equity. With reasonable control over my opponents in a multi way pots, I think limping has the better equity.



    SplitSuit wrote:
    Eazzy wrote:
    I also happen to love mutli way pots with highish spr's against bad players...the hand reading becomes easy but they don't do it. IMO this gives me a much bigger edge (with position) then forcing high variance on player who I hope don't like it.

    Sure. But in MW pots it becomes much tougher to figure out where you are postflop...

    I think with control over you opponents (which I hope have at 1-2) multi way pots are easier to figure where you at. Player play very straight forward in these pots. The few droolers who don't stick out like sore thumbs and you get reads on them real fast.
    Eazzy wrote:
    SplitSuit wrote:
    As it was..I raised to $40 (a bit small)...got shoved on by the original raiser...and given the limped preflop had an easy fold...

    But you folded one of the strongest hands in your range! Why are we giving him credit for having exclusively 7 combos of sets or 2 combos of reasonable 2pr? Could he not make this same play with 76, 98, etc.?

    This is 1-2 I'm playing exploitative poker not GTO , where I'm at in my range makes little difference when I can put my opponents on ranges.

    From an EV point of view...even if I assume he plays his open ended straight draws sets and two pairs, this way, off to poker lab, I have about 46% equity...yes positive with the dead money but no slam donk. And that one of the best case set of assumption

    Now we go to my modelling of the !-2 player pool I play against. Maybe 20% will pot a draw into multi way limped pot. And these players tend to me more aggressive overall, I also tend to note these plays...I had no such note on this guy, he had made no aggressive moves that I had noted.

    Again its !-2...and my player pool ability to shove an 8 out draw...is maybe 1 out of 10, and they again generally do not stay off my radar for 3 or 4 hours that we had been playing.

    Players who will think top pair is worth shoving....over a raise, are few, and again they show up on your radar.

    I am playing on the East Coast (the civilized part of the country) you may have different reads in your games...But I think once he shoves its an easy fold.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,063 ✭✭✭✭
    I mean... I play East Coast poker too. You play at Parx?

    Alright I think over-limping A9o here is kinda bad TBH. I'm not saying you can't limp here, but I think this hand possibly doesn't belong.

    As per the Little article: ATo has more value post given it makes some straights. For example, when it comes K J x and you face a bet, you have a lot more playablity. Even if it checks to you, you don't mind firing with your gutshot. However, A9o does not have this priviledge.

    As much as it pains me, I think folding > limping here. I think pending gameflow we can raise to $20-25. You going to take this down a high % of the time. If it goes post flop, we just play poker. Cbet when approporate, check back when needed, etc.

    As played, I think we raise/fold Flop. Thinking about anything GTO here is futile, because we limped A9o on the BU. The game tree wouldn't make any sense IMO.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    I mean... I play East Coast poker too. You play at Parx?

    I mostly play in Atlantic City (actually Ive only played in AC). Mostly at Harrods and Bally's, but lately Ive been playing a lot at Borgata. They all treat me very well, it amazes me how often I can get a sweat comped for just playing a lot of 1-2 poker.



    As per the Little article: ATo has more value post given it makes some straights. For example, when it comes K J x and you face a bet, you have a lot more playablity. Even if it checks to you, you don't mind firing with your gutshot. However, A9o does not have this priviledge.

    I can see your point but it seems intuitively wrong to limp the stronger hand and raise the weaker one.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,063 ✭✭✭✭
    Eazzy wrote:
    I mean... I play East Coast poker too. You play at Parx?

    I mostly play in Atlantic City (actually Ive only played in AC). Mostly at Harrods and Bally's, but lately Ive been playing a lot at Borgata. They all treat me very well, it amazes me how often I can get a sweat comped for just playing a lot of 1-2 poker.



    As per the Little article: ATo has more value post given it makes some straights. For example, when it comes K J x and you face a bet, you have a lot more playablity. Even if it checks to you, you don't mind firing with your gutshot. However, A9o does not have this priviledge.

    I can see your point but it seems intuitively wrong to limp the stronger hand and raise the weaker one.

    No one said you cannot raise them both lol. However, poker is a strange game where some hands, some of which are weaker, need initiavite to perform better. And hands like A9o fit into that catergory very much so. ATo on the Button can possibly get away with an overlimp because of its post flop playability.

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